If EX1R good for indie film-making?

Duke M. said:
Its true that an EX1 is what people move up to when they want more professional options, rather than most people's starting points. If the OP is beginning amateur with no idea where he's going a lesser camera to learn with may be an option.

However, a DSLR is low enough resolution that it is not acceptable for many broadcasting companies (Discovery, BBC, etc). I think you first need to ask him what his target market will be. The EX1 is pretty much accepted everywhere.

If I could have afforded it I wish I had been able to start with an EX1 rather than moving through several cameras like I did, but that's more of a philosophical issue/choice.

He also has the choice of buying used, rather than new, and he must buy mics, lights, flags, props and other goodies.
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His original post was about Indie Film making. Late model DSLRs are very capable of doing that.
 
You can make an indie movie with any camera, in the case of DSLRs if you're willing to fight with audio, moire, etc. It can be done if you take the extra steps and do the extra work. Then what are you going to do with it afterwards?

Webvideos, perfect. Show it to your buddies, perfect. Show it on school TV, perfect. Sell it to a syndicated TV outlet if you're not the producer of a hit TV show, lots of luck. Use it to make a movie that will actually air in theaters, be my guest at the diminutive odds of that. Personally I prefer to maximize my odds.

Don't get me wrong, I like DSLRs and I do use mine. Statistically I do think they are professionally limiting with some niche exceptions. Feel free to prove me wrong and shoot the next Johnny Depp movie on one. If you can talk his manager into that, heck, I'll buy a ticket.
 
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Duke M. said:
You can make an indie movie with any camera, in the case of DSLRs if you're willing to fight with audio, moire, etc. It can be done if you take the extra steps and do the extra work. Then what are you going to do with it afterwards?

Use it to make a movie that will actually air in theaters, be my guest at the diminutive odds of that. Personally I prefer to maximize my odds.
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Duke, a lot of what you've said here can be laid at the feet of film as well. You'll need sync sound, proper gear, proper lighting, post will be hell, etc. You won't have moire issues, but you'll have other things to deal with depending on what you shoot. Especially if the movie is dark.

Honestly, I was quite pleased with our screening of 5D footage in a real theater. I was lucky enough to be the colorist for it, and had a real 150 seat theater with digital projection available to check my work as I went along. That short has now been accepted into 9 film festivals and done pretty well at some of them so far. I'm not saying we produced a great film, but it was ok, considering that we took delivery of the 5D 3 days before principal photography started. The image held up fine for what we were doing.

The DSLRs can get it done if you give them a fighting chance. But I'd still prefer a RED One given the opportunity. I'd REALLY like to try a D21 or an Alexa.
 
Sure there are exceptions. Heck 28 Days Later, Open Water and Blair Witch were all shot in SD with a ton of post processing.

The obstacles can be overcome, but why make it harder on yourself, and really the cost of the camera is just a fraction of your budget.
 
Duke M. said:
Sure there are exceptions. Heck 28 Days Later, Open Water and Blair Witch were all shot in SD with a ton of post processing.

The obstacles can be overcome, but why make it harder on yourself, and really the cost of the camera is just a fraction of your budget.
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Always nice to spend someone elses money.
He is new, asking someone to spend 15K with no experience is usually not a good idea. He indicated he was interested in a film like depth of field.
So he should avoid stripes and plaids for warddrobe. Not too hard to avoid.
Besides if he likes what he's doing and becomes good at it, when the Scarlet S35 gets released later this year/early next, he won't have to sell his EX1 at a steep discount. And every thing he learns will apply.
Or the new sub 10K USD PL mount cameras coming out from Sony and Panasonic....same thing.

The only reason to spend that much money is if he has a paying gig to justify it.
But in the end, it's his decision. The EX1R probably has the best price/performance ratio in the under 10K class for video cameras.
Good luck.
 
zeke said:
Always nice to spend someone elses money.
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Of course. :thumbsup: And I'm probably quibbling over nothing but...

zeke said:
He is new, asking someone to spend 15K with no experience is usually not a good idea.
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That was the budget he stated, and I'm assuming that's for everything for the movie, camera, lights, mics, talent, etc. Its a workable budget for a feature length film if you're careful.

zeke said:
He indicated he was interested in a film like depth of field.
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Actually he said he wanted to produce indie movies not just produce DOF. If you want to sell your indie movies you have to pay attention to details AND the big picture.

zeke said:
So he should avoid stripes and plaids for wardrobe. Not too hard to avoid.
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And picket fences, roofs with tiles, metal grates, brick walls, etc. As I said earlier, and I think you agree. He can work around it, but it adds extra work.

zeke said:
Besides if he likes what he's doing and becomes good at it, when the Scarlet S35 gets released later this year/early next, he won't have to sell his EX1 at a steep discount.
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The scarlet S35 is not going to be anywhere near that price range with all the extras its going to take to operate it. The Scarlet S35 brain alone is $7,000, which more than the cost of EX1. Then add an EVF $3,200, a canon mount $500, a CF module $500, an I/O module $1,750, matte box $1,200, a base plate $500, the lenses, etc. You're looking at a minimum of $15,000 and more likely $25,000 for a working rig.

The fixed scarlet will be in the same price range as the EX1 by the time you get batteries, accessories, cards, but its not going to be much of an improvement of picture quality over the EX1 with a Nanoflash. There won't be any reason to get rid of the EX1. Maybe the HMC150, XH-A1, and other lower resolution cameras will take a hit, but not that much of a hit. Shoot DVX100's are still selling and they're SD.

zeke said:
And every thing he learns will apply.
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True, but he'll learn more from a video camera. Most of the DSLRs don't have all of the controls.

zeke said:
Or the new sub 10K USD PL mount cameras coming out from Sony and Panasonic....same thing.
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Yep, and if done well they may take a big bite out of Scarlet sales. If they have the same issues as the GH1, 5D, 7D they won't make much of a difference.

zeke said:
The only reason to spend that much money is if he has a paying gig to justify it.
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Other than to show your grandma isn't the reason to make an indie movie to express yourself and make the best movie you can make? Oh, and to learn so your next movie is even better.

zeke said:
But in the end, it's his decision. The EX1R probably has the best price/performance ratio in the under 10K class for video cameras.
Good luck.
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Absolutely. He needs to focus on what his goals are first. Try a few cameras, then decide.
 
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I don't know, my suggestion is going for something cheaper than the EX if your budget is that low. Maybe the Canon XHA1 is a better choice. It'll look great on a DVD, and with an adapter and some other things you'll have a pretty nice camera package for a little bit more if not as much as the EX1 would cost you (just for the camera and some extra batteries).

If that's going to be too much, I say go for the DSLR's. I'm not a fan of their drawbacks...but for your budget, the Canon 7D could be the perfect choice. Get a 7D with a good piece of glass (that is a zoom lens), and then spend the rest of your dough on the other important stuff like lights, a good mic, etc.

With that kind of budget, if you want it to be more filmic with the DOF and such, DSLR might be the best option.
 
If you are just starting out, I really think that you need to learn on an actual video camcorder and not an HDSLR.

If I hadn't all ready had several years of video experience, combined with multiple photography classes, I would have never figured out how to properly use my T2i for video.

You can get a Panasonic HMC40 for around $2,000.

You can get a Panasonic HMC150 or Canon XH-A1 for around $3,500.

All of those would probably be better to learn on than an HDSLR.
 
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agcohn said:
You can get a Panasonic HMC70 or HMC40 (I believe this higher end than the 70) for around $2,000 or less.
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HMC70 is pretty much totally not what a filmmaker would want. It's a 60i-only, primarily automatic camera, made more for schools. If the choice was between an HMC40 and an HMC70, no question the HMC40 is the one you'd want. But the newly forthcoming HMC80 looks quite interesting, it's basically a full-size shoulder-mount version of the HMC40, for not much more.
 
i would keep the camera in the lower end of the budget, or rent. it isnt the least important aspect of the project, but there are a LOT of random or unexpected circumstances and costs that will add up.

having said that, and having shot with both DSLR and prosumer cameras with and without 35mm adapters, they each have their strengths. IF you can afford it, and if editing budget supports it, i would suggest to use both. for roughly the same price as an EX1, a T2i and XH A1/s would give you the greatest capture range and different capabilities, and the most dynamic shooting range for the money you are considering, PLUS a B-cam setup available full-time, and i believe a B-cam is extremely important.
 
Barry_Green said:
HMC70 is pretty much totally not what a filmmaker would want. It's a 60i-only, primarily automatic camera, made more for schools. If the choice was between an HMC40 and an HMC70, no question the HMC40 is the one you'd want. But the newly forthcoming HMC80 looks quite interesting, it's basically a full-size shoulder-mount version of the HMC40, for not much more.
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Good to know, Barry. Thanks.

I have edited my post to remove the HMC70 from the discussion of cameras for a filmmaker to learn on.
 
PerroneFord said:
This is exactly what I mean by transcoding. What format you choose for editing is often dictated by the editor you choose. Many editors have a built in, preferred format. In Final Cut Pro, it's ProRes. In Avid it's DNxHD, in Edius it's CanopusHQ. Some programs like Premiere and Vegas don't have one built in, and you'll see codecs like Cineform be very popular with those editors.
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Now why would you transcode XDCAM EX into ProRes? Every time you transcode you lose quality. You simply edit XDCAM EX in timeline and render in ProRES.
And yes EX1 is the best bang for the buck out there.
 
PerroneFord said:
Why would you do it? Better color space, holds up better down the line if you have significant post to do, Might require less power from the machine to run which is important if you are working on an older computer. Nothing says you have to do it.
I wish people would stop saying this or at least qualify it, because as stated, it's simply not true. I can transcode 100 times and not lose a single thing. There is certainly the OPPORTUNITY to lose information, but you don't have to.
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What you are saying is simply not true. You can't creat something out of nothing. If the camera compresses signal to 4:2:0 XDCAM EX you have 4:2:0 information even in ProRes. If you want ProRes 4:2:2 capture it as such otherwise you are fooling yourself. Any broadcast engineer will confirm my statement.
Yes you lose quality anytime you transcode- period.
 
PerroneFord said:
Yes it is, and it's proven every single day in post houses around the world.
This statement holds until the VERY moment I modify the white balance, color, luma, or anything else in that footage. Because as soon as I do that, the increased color space of 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 pay off.
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Try to educate yourself a bit before you make these kinds of statements.
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Maybe you should read this before you spew a bunch a bs:
http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/assets/files/micro/xdcamex/downloads/25634_XDCAM_AppleFinalCutPro_R1.pdf
or FCP7 chapter 8 p 95-101 FCP White paper. So no- contrary to you I have a pretty good idea what I am talking about. On the other hand you should read a bit more.
BTW can you name a post production facility you work with? Because I would to avoid it using it.
 
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Just finished a shoot with an EX1 with a Letus adaptor, there was a 7D on set to do "pickup" shots. The EX1 is way more user friendly. My opinion, YMMV.
 
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