If EX1R good for indie film-making?

[Babak Serr]

Hi guys! Absolute noob here (first post!)

I'm getting serious about going towards indie film production.

Part of that involved understanding all the technology out there and after 30 or so hours of internet research I've realised it's a very complicated (and costly) area!

So I was hoping for some advice from you good folk.

1) Is the EX1R a good camera for indie film-making? As in, is it flexible? Can it produce film-like shots without 35mm adapters? (I know Letus has one for example, but it's expensive and I'm not sure if I can get it in Australia, without paying a massive postage fee). I know EX3 is more flexible (with the changeable lens and all) but the fact that it's older and slightly more expensive it a put-off. And I think it's 1/3" instead of 1/2" (to the best of my understanding, it makes some difference in e.g. low-light situations. I love low light shots so it might be important for me; feel free to disagree though).

2) Are there other brands that provide serious competition to the Sony EX1R in the same price range? I know Canon has a new camera that's similar. For indie-filmmaking, what would you recommend?

3) I'm confused about DSLR's. Are they better for film? Are they more troublesome? Being able to easily edit the videos is important for me. I intend to use Premiere Pro CS4/5, which I know has a XDCAM EX mode already. Any advice?

4) Is the XDCAM EX format CPU-intensive for post-production editing?

Any and all advice is seriously appreciated. Thanks so much!

 

[PerroneFord]

I'm getting serious about going towards indie film production.

Part of that involved understanding all the technology out there and after 30 or so hours of internet research I've realised it's a very complicated (and costly) area!

So I was hoping for some advice from you good folk.

You've asked some good questions. So let's take them in turn.

1) Is the EX1R a good camera for indie film-making? As in, is it flexible? Can it produce film-like shots without 35mm adapters? (I know Letus has one for example, but it's expensive and I'm not sure if I can get it in Australia, without paying a massive postage fee). I know EX3 is more flexible (with the changeable lens and all) but the fact that it's older and slightly more expensive it a put-off. And I think it's 1/3" instead of 1/2" (to the best of my understanding, it makes some difference in e.g. low-light situations. I love low light shots so it might be important for me; feel free to disagree though).

There are two different questions here. Is the EX1(r) good for indie film? Yes, I think it is. I am using one for that purpose at the moment. I don't know what you mean by "flexible. As for it giving film-line shots, I take that to mean shallow DOF. The answer to that is probably no in most instances. It "can" be done, but not without some difficult and compromise. The EX3 has the same 1/2" sensor so that's not going to make any difference. Do not be fooled with "low light" shots. What appears to be low-light in the movie world is usually quite bright. For example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npmEjMIXaCs&NR=1

That was shot with my EX1. However, it was nearly daylight in that shot, and the actor has his lines at his feet and they were easily read. It is not even close to dark in that room.

2) Are there other brands that provide serious competition to the Sony EX1R in the same price range? I know Canon has a new camera that's similar. For indie-filmmaking, what would you recommend?

Brand is really not important at all in this game. Not at this level anyway. Canon has a new camera coming, but it has a smaller sensor than the EX1 which makes it less desirable to my mind for this kind of work.

3) I'm confused about DSLR's. Are they better for film? Are they more troublesome? Being able to easily edit the videos is important for me. I intend to use Premiere Pro CS4/5, which I know has a XDCAM EX mode already. Any advice?

DSLR's aren't necessarily "better" for film. They make different compromises. They give a look that is similar to an EX1(r) with a 35mm adapter. It is best to think of them as digital film cameras. With all the same issues, and some more thrown on top. However, they are inexpensive, light, cheap to operate, and in narrative film-making, can give the shallow DOF so many desire in their films. As for being easy to edit, if you are serious about doing this, you should be transcoding to an editing format regardless of what camera you shoot on. People who shoot on film don't just rip it out of the camera and take a pair of scissors to it. Treat your "negatives" with similar care, and prepare them properly. If you're in a hurry, you're in the wrong game.

4) Is the XDCAM EX format CPU-intensive for post-production editing?

No it is not. That said, you shouldn't be doing post with XDCamEX in indie film. If you need to turn things around quickly for the nightly news, that's different. But for film, take your time and do it properly.

 

[Babak Serr]

Thanks for the great reply! Some follow-up questions:

1) So in terms of getting a shallow depth of field, what are some alternative camera's (apart from DSLR's which you already covered)? I'm not saying it rules out the EX1R but it would be nice to understand the options.

2) Point taken on the light thing.

3) I'm definitely the 'take your time and do it right' type. Going with that notion, what do you mean by transcoding to an editing format? For the EX1R camera, does that mean converting the XDCAM EX format to another format for editing? What format? [I don't expect too much detail as I can look it up but explaining the general principle would be very helpful].

Thanks mate.

 

[PerroneFord]

Thanks for the great reply! Some follow-up questions:

1) So in terms of getting a shallow depth of field, what are some alternative camera's (apart from DSLR's which you already covered)? I'm not saying it rules out the EX1R but it would be nice to understand the options.

There are four choices in terms of getting shallow DOF

1. Use a normal camera, and back WAY off, and zoom in. This can be problematic to say the least. (Free)

2. Use a 35mm adapter ($1k-$2500)

3. Use a DSLR ($900-$5k)

4. Use a digital cinema camera with a large sensor. ($35k - $500k)

3) I'm definitely the 'take your time and do it right' type. Going with that notion, what do you mean by transcoding to an editing format? For the EX1R camera, does that mean converting the XDCAM EX format to another format for editing? What format? [I don't expect too much detail as I can look it up but explaining the general principle would be very helpful].

This is exactly what I mean by transcoding. What format you choose for editing is often dictated by the editor you choose. Many editors have a built in, preferred format. In Final Cut Pro, it's ProRes. In Avid it's DNxHD, in Edius it's CanopusHQ. Some programs like Premiere and Vegas don't have one built in, and you'll see codecs like Cineform be very popular with those editors.

The idea of an intermediate codec or editing codec is different depending on where you are coming from. In our world of the inexpensive camera, we are generally using an editing codec that is of higher quality than we can get in the camera. And it holds up to multiple generations of rendering FAR better. It has better color structure, it moves faster on the timeline, and is just better overall. For those who are originating on 35mm film, or high end digital cameras, the editing codecs reduce disk space, move faster on the timeline, and in general makes things easier.

 

[zeke]

Thanks for the great reply! Some follow-up questions:

1) So in terms of getting a shallow depth of field, what are some alternative camera's (apart from DSLR's which you already covered)? I'm not saying it rules out the EX1R but it would be nice to understand the options.

2) Point taken on the light thing.

3) I'm definitely the 'take your time and do it right' type. Going with that notion, what do you mean by transcoding to an editing format? For the EX1R camera, does that mean converting the XDCAM EX format to another format for editing? What format? [I don't expect too much detail as I can look it up but explaining the general principle would be very helpful].

Thanks mate.

Have you studied cinematography? Have a background in still photography?
The issue with the new crop of video enabled DSLRs, is the thing that makes them attractive (shallow depth of field) comes with a price. Much more care needs to be taken when shooting. You may need additional equipment, like follow focus, and a lupe or an external HD monitor to make sure the image is in focus. In addition, many use additional audio equipment to compensate for the poor onboard audio most DSLRs have.
Plus the transcoding issues Perrone mentioned.

That's just for starters.

I know of at least one move that got into Sundance was shot on EX1, edited in Vegas, (then had post work done in Scratch).
There are ways to keep the aperature open on an EX1R, like using ND filters to lower the amount of light going into the camera without changing the color.
There are plug-ins like "Magic Bullet looks" which work with a variety of NLEs and can help with getting the 'movie look'. Very helpful for people new to feature movie
scene.
If you choose to add a 35mm adaptor though, then going with one of the newer video enabled DLSR's would be less expensive and much less hassle.

What is your initial equipment budget?

 

[Duke M.]

Let me add to Perrone's number 1. Backing off and zooming in does fine to create DOF control without an adapter in many/most circumstances. The EX1 is aided by the slightly bigger 1/2" sensor compared to 1/3" on most prosumer cameras.

It doesn't have to be that far back, maybe 10-12' in a 20' room and it will look good. What you can't do is get good DOF in a 10' or smaller room. Then you'll need something with a bigger 'sensor' surface like a DOF adapter, a DSLR, or a Red. So far DSLR's don't record sound properly, have aliasing issues, some frame rate issues, etc.

Many, many big name Hollywood movies were shot on 2/3" sensor video cameras. The EX1/3 produces the same DOF by opening up a fraction of a stop.

The MXF files of the EX1 are editable in the CS3/4/5. If you upgrade to a Nanoflash later on you can edit those MXF files with a simple plug in. No stuttering, no transcoding, easy as pie.

 

[PerroneFord]

Let me add to Perrone's number 1. Backing off and zooming in does fine to create DOF control without an adapter in many/most circumstances. The EX1 is aided by the slightly bigger 1/2" sensor compared to 1/3" on most prosumer cameras.

True.

It doesn't have to be that far back, maybe 10-12' in a 20' room and it will look good. What you can't do is get good DOF in a 10' or smaller room. Then you'll need something with a bigger 'sensor' surface like a DOF adapter, a DSLR, or a Red. So far DSLR's don't record sound properly, have aliasing issues, some frame rate issues, etc.

Yes, but..

Try this in a kitchen. Or a bathroom. Or any other intimate setting. Try it when you need to move the camera smoothly. Or when you want a 3-shot and not a CU or MCU. The problem with the zoom in method is that it's very, very limiting. Which is why the 35mm adapter was heralded in the first place. It solves a significant problem, while creating some other minor ones (need more light, more setup time, etc.)

Many, many big name Hollywood movies were shot on 2/3" sensor video cameras. The EX1/3 produces the same DOF by opening up a fraction of a stop.

This is true, however big name Hollywood cinematographers choose the correct tool for the job. The difference on a major feature between renting a Viper, or a SI2K or an F35 is not that great in the scheme of things. And there are times when deeper focus is desire. Public Enemies is an excellent example. Different cameras were tested but the desire was to have deep focus, so a 2/3" camera was finally chosen. Had the desire of the director and cinematographer been different, a different camera would have been selected.

We are talking about a different thing here. A lack of options due to the chosen equipment. This is one reason I like the 7D. APS-C sized sensor that let's you go very shallow by really opening up, or lets you go deeper by closing the iris down. Very flexible.

 

[Duke M.]

What you are saying is perfectly true too, but its funny you should mention Public Enemies with Johnny Depp because it has scenes in it that were shot with the EX1 (as does District 9).

Every camera has limitations. I too have a 7D and use it for its DOF control. However, the EX1 is a far more versatile camera. I think that's what the original poster was after, one camera.

The limitations I see with the EX1 are modest DOF control and not handling fast motion well. But is has great sound and fantastic resolution if you control movements.

The limitations I see with the 7D are the same CMOS issues, poor sound, aliasing, low resolution, moire, limited controls in video mode. But it has great DOF control and handles low light fairly well.

So the funniest thing is you concluded the 7D is very flexible, while I conclude its very limited.

 

[PerroneFord]

So the funniest thing is you concluded the 7D is very flexible, while I conclude its very limited.

Isn't that what makes this great? I've shot the 5D, 7D, and own the EX1 and am currently in production with it on a short. A lot of it is being shot indoors in a small apartment, and it's been a struggle to try to get shallow DOF. Not that I find it the end-all, be-all, but in a REAL home, there are just a lot of limitations and things I'd rather not be seeing in the background. I'm finding myself standing in the corners of rooms trying to get some distance from the subject, and trying to get some room behind the subject. And it's not easy. I think it's much easier to get deeper DOF from the 7D than it is to get shallow DOF from the EX1.

All your observations about the DSLR stuff are on the money though. The real ideal for me would be a Letus on the end of this EX1 with a Nano-flash. But that's just not happening right now. And it doesn't serve the OP's issue.

I could also build up a heck of a nice rig centered around the 7D for the price of an EX1.

 

[Duke M.]

That's probably why both you and I have both an EX1 and a 7D. Different tools are better at different things.

It will be interesting to see how some of the new cameras like new Panny (AF100?) do as far as combining the best of both worlds. There's a new Sony one too that's supposed to be trying the same thing.

 

[Madp]

my two cents

"Twelve fingers or one, it's how you play"

 

[Babak Serr]

Have you studied cinematography? Have a background in still photography?

Na, I'm a complete novice aside from some amateur editing (e.g. making my own No Country for Old Men trailer! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17XQ6MyTnpw )

The issue with the new crop of video enabled DSLRs, is the thing that makes them attractive (shallow depth of field) comes with a price.

I see. Sounds like something I might try down the track but certainly not now.

I know of at least one move that got into Sundance was shot on EX1, edited in Vegas, (then had post work done in Scratch).

Wow.

What is your initial equipment budget?

My budget is maximum $15,000AU (Basically the minimum price of getting an EX1R, a Miller tripod, batteries and SxS, some misc items, senheisser mic kit, and either a cheap glider of some sort OR a 35mm solution, like the Letus Extreme and a 35mm lens; this kit is probably what I'd get: http://www.videoguys.com.au/Shop/p/...x-hd-production-kit-vg-sony-pmwex1r-prod.html (keeping in mind it's AU dollars; roughly equals $1US but we get screwed over due to smaller market heh).

Backing off and zooming in does fine to create DOF control without an adapter

Sounds good. I might go with this until I can afford a 35mm solution. And Perrone's point is taken -- it's not perfect but when it works, it works. Awesome.

The MXF files of the EX1 are editable in the CS3/4/5. If you upgrade to a Nanoflash later on you can edit those MXF files with a simple plug in. No stuttering, no transcoding, easy as pie.

Yeah this is one of the reasons I like the EX1R!

Public Enemies with Johnny Depp because it has scenes in it that were shot with the EX1 (as does District 9).

Wow.

It will be interesting to see how some of the new cameras like new Panny (AF100?) do as far as combining the best of both worlds. There's a new Sony one too that's supposed to be trying the same thing.

Which Sony one is this? I basically ignored the more expensive Sony ones that cost something like $30k because way over budget. But from your responses it sounds like the EX1R is pretty awesome to get a grasp of things and with some further (financial!) input you can get a 35mm adapter going.

Do you guys think there will be a camera in the EX1R/EX3 price range (or lower) that will have a native 35mm look option? Obviously I don't mean DSLR's and I'm assuming the answer to this question is no (to get that you need a bigger sensor and they exist already but cost a lot more!)

Thanks for the responses

 

[Babak Serr]

my two cents

"Twelve fingers or one, it's how you play"

Hehe deep. But you need to have playing cards to play.

BTW I have a funny question. I have some still photography lenses. Here is a list:
- (Old school) Nikon Lens Series E (50mm 1:1.8)
- Canon Zoom Lens EF 75-300mm 1:4-5.6 II (58mm, 75-300mm) [1.5m/4.9ft]
- Canon Zoom Lens EF 28-80mm 1:35-5.6 IV (58mm, 28-80mm) [0.38/1.3ft]

Does that mean anything to you guys? What would happen if you put one of these in front of an Ex1R with an adapter? The plot thickens lol.

 

[PerroneFord]

Yes, that means plenty in terms of your glass. It means that you'll need just bit more light to use that 50mm, and you'll need a TON more light to use either of the Canon glass. If you have the light, both would give nice results.

And the Sony camera that is being talked about was announced at NAB this year. It will have a sensor slightly smaller than the DSLRs but still MUCH larger than the EX1. However, there are a lot of unanswered questions about it still. And it will arrive into a market with both Panasonic offering something similar, and hopefully RED's Scarlet offering something similar at around the EX1 price range.

All of this is pure speculation at this point but it's going the get very interesting around Christmas 2010.

 

[Duke M.]

The way Red (especially) and now Panny and Sony are making pre-release announcements when they don't have fully developed prototypes I'm thinking sometime after NAB (April) 2011 before we'll actually be able to buy any of these.

Perrone is right, its all a gleem in some engineer's eyes at this point. Plus camera releases are often delayed. We've been waiting a couple years for the Scarlet and its not first in line for development at Red. Think about what you can shoot now.

Within their limitations the EX1 produces a great image. With a Nanoflash added it can produce images right up there with those $69,000 Sony cameras like the F900. They are all part of the Cinealta line developed between Sony, Panavision and George Lucas to shoot Starwars Episode II, III, etc.

With the addition of a 35mm adapter, or a DSLR you can get that DOF if you need it. Also try to pick locations with 'open' floor plans so you can shoot from one room into another. Instead of a difficult 15' room to work in it becomes 30' and easy.

Look around farther than just your own country when shopping. All EX1's do pal and ntsc both. Don't forget to add the cost of import taxes and shipping.

PS. If you're going to us a 35mm adaptor for DOF you'll do better with fast glass, like f1.4 or f1.8 at least. Adapters eat a lot of light. That's where the DSLR comes in although the DSLR will give you mosquito noise if you pump up the ISO. Again, use fast glass and use lights.

 

[zeke]

this is going to sound counter intuitive, but go with something like the Canon t2i/550d and get some peripherals to make it a better handling system.
then, get good books on cinematography.
I say this, because being a novice and if you find out this isn't for you, you haven't spent so much money, and you can still use the camera for stills. You can get a great but less expensive tripod like a libec, complete dslr kits from Zacuto or Red Rock..and use the difference on getting sync sound setup like a Zoom H4n. Consider Neo Scene from Cineform for converting from AHCHD to their codec a requirement if you want to maintain quality.
If you find you like what you're doing, then moving up to something like a professional video camera won't be such a risk. Plus you will have developed the skills needed for shallow depth of field cinematography.

Expect to take quite some time to get good at it.
Just MHO.

 

[Sumfun]

I second what Zeke said.

If you're on a budget, don't spend it all on the camera. There's plenty more that you will need. If you're new, why not start small - just to try it out and see if you like it. Once you learn about the trade, you'll have a better idea about what you need to buy for the types of projects that you want to do. And by that time (let's say a year from now), new/better equipment will be on the market.

 

[gabrielflorit]

+1 what Zeke said.

 

[LeavingTheCandy]

FYI, I'd like to chime-in a bit. I have both a 5D and EX1R. Both are excellent tools with limitations and advantages over the other. I recently added a AJA KiPro to my EX1 and it's been a real game-changer. I SURE love shooting with that baby now! The ability to shoot ProRes files at a MUCH higher data rate in 10-bit, has me reaching for the Canon less often.

I think a 5D and EX1/KiPro Combo is an AWESOME toolkit! If Canon ever changes the firmware to be able to record to the KiPro directly, it's game-over for everyone, including Red! ;-)

 

[Duke M.]

Its true that an EX1 is what people move up to when they want more professional options, rather than most people's starting points. If the OP is beginning amateur with no idea where he's going a lesser camera to learn with may be an option.

However, a DSLR is low enough resolution that it is not acceptable for many broadcasting companies (Discovery, BBC, etc). I think you first need to ask him what his target market will be. The EX1 is pretty much accepted everywhere.

If I could have afforded it I wish I had been able to start with an EX1 rather than moving through several cameras like I did, but that's more of a philosophical issue/choice.

He also has the choice of buying used, rather than new, and he must buy mics, lights, flags, props and other goodies.