IBC and workflow...

Jannard

Jannard

Red Leader
We recognize how important workflow is to the indie shooter. We hope to send a sigh of relief over all of those that love the idea of the RED 4k camera but are dreading the idea of what to do with all the data spilling out of our box. We hope you all stay tuned. Our new approach doesn't stop at the sensor.

Jim
 
That's outstanding news Jim! I was actually discussing workflow plans with my DP yesterday of all things and was saying we may have to start at 1920x1080 until we have the funds to get equipment able to cope with a 4K workflow. I can't wait to see what you unveil. Thanks for keeping us all informed, it is much appreciated.
 
Okay... So possible workflow:

1. Red camera spilling out tons of data
2. Final Cut Extreme sucking up tons of data
3. Viewed on a 4520 x 2540 50" Cinema Display
4. All piped through FireWire 4000... to be known as RedWire (and no separate capture card required)
 
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I'm only speculating but I'd imagine given the cost nature of the camera, it could be that the secret is in having RedCode be such that it allows for high def content manipulation in the mainstream programs such as Final Cut Pro, Premiere Pro and Avid. I'm sure Jim et al are in discussions with the major software groups that create these programs to allow for editing of Red content in some form, and if the codec is as good as I suspect it will be then it makes sense to support as high a resolution as possible over the widest possible install base. But like I said, I'm only speculating (and hoping).
 
I am really hoping for a robust, workable, proxy solution for Red - it's something that should be standard with any high datarate format today and sadly it's not. Even 1080 content can be difficult to work with on some machines - I can't imagine editing RAW 4K online. Some of the P2 cameras have the "option" available (as a separate $$$ card), but it's not even a choice for the HVX and sounds complicated even if you could use it. I'm crossing my fingers that Red can help deliver in this area.

I'm also hoping that Red will be Vegas-compatible - it's still my favorite NLE by far - but given their complete lack of HVX support, that may be a pipe dream. Still, in case that vote hasn't been expressed yet, I wanted to make sure Jim & Co. knew it was out there. There is more than FCP in this world!
 
Thanks Haakon

Thanks Haakon

I'll second that, Haakon. I've bought and been training myself on Final Cut this year, but miss Vegas terribly. There really is not another NLE that is fun to use. Every other editing program I've used feels like work while Vegas just lets me create. Sound silly? You probably haven't used Vegas. But the ones we should be talking to are probably the folks at Sony. They could be supporting the HVX by now, and don't. They seem to think Vegas is a place to unveil new game systems for the kids, when they have an NLE that with proper support and marketing could go head-to-head with Final Cut and Avid. And in the process, cast Sony in an entirely different light. My two cents.
 
And while I'm dreaming...

And while I'm dreaming...

Jim, ever thought of buying an NLE? you've got the cash - Sony doesn't seem too supportive of Vegas... and you love backing the dark horse...could you give the guys at Sony a call and buy Vegas? After all, they only paid $18 million for it a few years back...
 
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Haakon said:
I am really hoping for a robust, workable, proxy solution for Red
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That'd be helpful, but it's really the responsibility of the editing software. Proxies are something to be generated by a computer after acquisition; you wouldn't want to squander any of your data pipeline or storage space while filming. With these image sizes, every bit of data/computing capacity is going to be needed.

And I like Vegas too, and I don't blame them for the lack of Panasonic-camera support; I blame Panasonic. They never delivered a Windows codec. That's like Epson releasing a new printer and then sitting around waiting for Microsoft or Apple to write their drivers for them. Why release a piece of hardware and provide no way for the majority of computer users to use it?

Since the Red guys have already said that they're releasing both QuickTime and Windows codecs, you should get broad NLE coverage out of the box, especially since it won't be a workaround 24P scheme with some funky cadence that requires specialized NLE support. Will the NLEs scale up to 4K, given that your computer and storage system can deliver it? That remains to be seen.
 
DVXSanDiego said:
Jim, ever thought of buying an NLE? you've got the cash - Sony doesn't seem too supportive of Vegas... and you love backing the dark horse...could you give the guys at Sony a call and buy Vegas? After all, they only paid $18 million for it a few years back...
Click to expand...

You know what, that idea doesnt seem half bad. With a dedicated company with its own NLE, I'm sure we will see something radical, a departure from traditional NLEs.
 
:thumbsup:

Glad to see RED team is listening. The tease could be a number of things (third party support announcements, some RED codec hints).

Sept. 8th sounds like a good day to devote to geekhood.





RED # wish i was higher
 
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"RedWire".. i like that alot. Evin if it means something else.. like that RAW cable coming from the cable port... mmmm..
 
stokestack said:
That'd be helpful, but it's really the responsibility of the editing software. Proxies are something to be generated by a computer after acquisition; you wouldn't want to squander any of your data pipeline or storage space while filming. With these image sizes, every bit of data/computing capacity is going to be needed.
Click to expand...
That's not necessarily the case. The MPEG encoder add-on card that you can purchase separately for some of the 2/3" P2 cams actually records lower-resolution MPEG-4 proxies side-by-side with the DVCPRO HD content that contain identical timecode markers. You can edit the MPEG-4 stuff quickly and easily, and then point the final render to the bigger files when you're completely finished. That way you end up with pristine quality, but don't have to work in a sluggish environment to do so. It would be fantastic if Red had something built-in like this so we could actually acquire in 4K, have the master footage at the best possible resolution for archival and future development purposes, and still be able to work with it on a less-than-insane computer system. I would love to be able to shoot 4K, but I highly doubt I currently have a computer that's going to be able to do anything "real time" with that kind of footage.
 
DVXSanDiego said:
Jim, ever thought of buying an NLE? you've got the cash - Sony doesn't seem too supportive of Vegas... and you love backing the dark horse...could you give the guys at Sony a call and buy Vegas? After all, they only paid $18 million for it a few years back...
Click to expand...

Rather than trying to pry some NLE away from an established mega-corporation I would suggest that Jim get in touch with Tim Jenison or Andrew Cross over at Newtek for some discussions on SpeedEdit support of the Red camera. They are a smaller company that manages to do some really good work in the shadows of the big guys and you gotta think that there would be good synergy between Newtek and Red.

From the Newtek website - “Since its inception, NewTek has been a driving force in pushing the edge of video and 3D graphics technology while redefining price/performance and ease of use.”


They are trying to create a blisteringly fast and resolution independent NLE so I think that it would be in both Newtek’s and Red’s best interest to work together. If SpeedEdit can be made to handle the full 4K footage from the Red 1 it would be a marketing coup for Newtek and a big reassurance for those of us buying a Red 1. SpeedEdit is going to have a suggested price of $495 and if it worked smoothly with the Red 1 I would suspect that they could almost sell one copy for every Red camera.
 
Kleenex.jpg

Time to get out the old trusty box of
Kleenex again...

e
 
i seem to recall hearing that all the outputs are "hot", so what if you had 4k raw streaming over the infiniband connection to the redraid, and then scaled 720p or 1080p going out to the reddrive. it seems like this might be possible because the raw footage would not require the dedicated hardware down conversion. could be completely wrong about this. the files could be linked by name or some code so you could easily reattach the 4k files after editing.
what would really be sweet is if their was special red raw software where you could do you color adjustments and what not, and then send simulated raw output color data to the 720p proxies for an approximation of final output. also, what i think would be really cool would be to be able to pull up the full 4k files at any time through your editor for presicion edits or effects work. it just seems like if red one has a dedicated down conversion component, this would safe a ton of time as opposed to creating proxies on your computer.
 
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