C500: I went ahead and did a C500 Fan Noise Quick Video Test - See Vimeo link & talk?
- Thread starter C-Mac
- Start date
Amazingly, my BMPC-4K has no FPN at any ISO, so I guess I was lucky in that sense . . .
As for the C500, it's definitely not a user-friendly camera for 4K HFR. I believe you would require the Codex for recording 4K 60P in non-RAW formats.
Btw, the 3rd Atlas Shrugged film, which was a C500 production, was shot in 4K ProRes 4444 from the AJA Ki Pro Quad using a wacky thunderbolt to computer setup:
https://www.aja.com/news/user-stories/168
So, it is possible to get 4K ProRes 444 (internally) and 4444 (externally with thunderbolt) from the C500 with the Ki Pro Quad.
Here is some 4K ProRes that I like from that same recorder:
I'm sure you have also seen this one (also shot on the Ki Pro Quad), which includes 1DC and DJI footage:
As for the C500, it's definitely not a user-friendly camera for 4K HFR. I believe you would require the Codex for recording 4K 60P in non-RAW formats.
Btw, the 3rd Atlas Shrugged film, which was a C500 production, was shot in 4K ProRes 4444 from the AJA Ki Pro Quad using a wacky thunderbolt to computer setup:
https://www.aja.com/news/user-stories/168
So, it is possible to get 4K ProRes 444 (internally) and 4444 (externally with thunderbolt) from the C500 with the Ki Pro Quad.
Here is some 4K ProRes that I like from that same recorder:
I'm sure you have also seen this one (also shot on the Ki Pro Quad), which includes 1DC and DJI footage:
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C-Mac
Well-known member
I believe the best thing to do is to push air into the camera at the bottom vent and suck air out with the fan at the top vent... why? Because heat rises and thus you are not fighting the natural path of hot air.
I have not had a chance to do my tests today after some things came up, but I did pick up a 12 x18inch 22 gauge steel metal sheet at Home Depot. I made a template with card stock paper then traced it on the metal. I cut the metal with jigsaw (metal cutting blade) and drilled the holes. It all installed well and I am good to go. I also did a head test next to the fire place and it did fine.
Best Regards,
Chris
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C-Mac
Well-known member
AbelCine is out of stock on these with no future plans, so you will have to build your own option or find another option. I think B. Berry got the last one.
C-Mac
Well-known member
I recommend pushing air into the bottom and vacuum or pulling air out from the top... heat rises so stay with the nature of hot air rising air flow.... It's working great for me.
Best Regards,
Chris
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C-Mac
Well-known member
I don't see Noctuas fans in 35mm x 10mm size... 40mm will likely be too large for the system.
Best Regards,
Chris
C-Mac
Well-known member
The fans are 12v but I have found running my fans at 9v is a great speed to keep low noise. You probably won't want to run in series as it will make your external fans run in overdrive and they will likely be loud. You can take 2 - 9v batteries and run them in Parallel, this would double your capacity and maintain the voltage. I am going to run a 6 pack case of AA batteries in a Series. This will give 9v and solid capacity. FYI, I ran both fans on a single 9v battery for 1hr and 40mins, the battery did not run out.
Best Regards,
Chris
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nedcam
Well-known member
World Series Commercial break:
I don't understand, been watching this thread. Please enlighten me. You seem experienced, but you wrote that you were using a ME66 and there were wood floors. That's a cheap, cheap POS mic. Would you be having an issue with fan noise if it was a decent lav mic? Just askin. I don't get the issue because most of us would be using a lav, especially with wood floors, right? I just don't get why one would care about a boom overhead (especially a cheap POS mic), when you know the editor won't be using that track, correct? I always consider Ch 2 as an "EMERGENCY USE ONLY" track, perhaps if there's clothing rustle or static. I never could afford a Schoeps, always a Sennheiser Man myself, I instruct my editors to not use Ch 2 (or On Camera mics) when sending raw files to the clients for selects, so an overhead boom to me is irrelevant. In other words, is the fan noise a problem during regular lav Ch 1 Only interviews? I wouldn't think so, especially at 8'?
I ask because I was thinking, if I don't go FS7, and stay in the Canon family, this fan noise issue is diconcerting, yet I would never use a Ch 2 boom, especially a cheap one, especially with wood floors, unless Ch 1 had issues.
Thanks,
Ned
P.S. 75% of the time I do my own audio nowadays, but when I have a pro audio guy and they ask if I want an overhead boom on Ch 2, I look at where and what fabric the lav is on, then I look to see if it's a hard floor, and if it is, I say put the lav on both channels. So why would we care if there is fan noise?
P.S.S. I have the Senn MH60 and I consider it a POS mic compared to a Schoeps. And that's more sensitive than either mine or yours and would definitely pick up fan noise. Many cameras we use have fan noise, but they are far from the lav mic.
Back to the world series Game 1!
Edit: I forgot to say: Go Cubs!
I don't understand, been watching this thread. Please enlighten me. You seem experienced, but you wrote that you were using a ME66 and there were wood floors. That's a cheap, cheap POS mic. Would you be having an issue with fan noise if it was a decent lav mic? Just askin. I don't get the issue because most of us would be using a lav, especially with wood floors, right? I just don't get why one would care about a boom overhead (especially a cheap POS mic), when you know the editor won't be using that track, correct? I always consider Ch 2 as an "EMERGENCY USE ONLY" track, perhaps if there's clothing rustle or static. I never could afford a Schoeps, always a Sennheiser Man myself, I instruct my editors to not use Ch 2 (or On Camera mics) when sending raw files to the clients for selects, so an overhead boom to me is irrelevant. In other words, is the fan noise a problem during regular lav Ch 1 Only interviews? I wouldn't think so, especially at 8'?
I ask because I was thinking, if I don't go FS7, and stay in the Canon family, this fan noise issue is diconcerting, yet I would never use a Ch 2 boom, especially a cheap one, especially with wood floors, unless Ch 1 had issues.
Thanks,
Ned
P.S. 75% of the time I do my own audio nowadays, but when I have a pro audio guy and they ask if I want an overhead boom on Ch 2, I look at where and what fabric the lav is on, then I look to see if it's a hard floor, and if it is, I say put the lav on both channels. So why would we care if there is fan noise?
P.S.S. I have the Senn MH60 and I consider it a POS mic compared to a Schoeps. And that's more sensitive than either mine or yours and would definitely pick up fan noise. Many cameras we use have fan noise, but they are far from the lav mic.
Back to the world series Game 1!
Edit: I forgot to say: Go Cubs!
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That is great to hear. The 6-pack AA should be a nice setup, but where are you placing the battery pack? I want everything self-enclosed in one fan/battery attachment that I place on the camera for occasional use and I would not want wiring going anywhere.
You're definitely not the crazy one NorBro! I can see that it would be a problem in certain situations so I want the option for external fans, but most of the time I will be running without them. The place where it is definitely a problem is when you have a camera-mounted mic and are recording long takes that go 10+ minutes.
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I just bought the C500, and out of the box it roared, those cooling fans are loud. Doing interviews on location or the studio and having these fans on would be a pain in the ass! A producer, or director, would turn to the cameraman rolling the C500 and say "is that fan going to stay on during the interview" dealing with some celebrity interviews, or sensitive medical, or high end corporate boss interview, you just can't have a fan noise going off like the fans cooling the C500 in 2K or 4K. Here in LA, I have never worked with a louder camera noise than that of the C500. I get my modified external fan unit tomorrow, and if it works and keeps those bloody internal fans from going off, I will keep the C500.
My sound package is a Sound Devices 302 mixer, with a Schoeps MK41 with a Cut 1, my wireless system is a Lectrosonics 210 with Sonotrim lav mic, and Sennheiser MK2, I usually have a sound recordist with their own package, they usually have the sanken COS 11. I like the sound of the boom (Schoeps) it has more bass and depth, it seems to sound more natural to my ear? the Lav Mics are good most often concealed, and sound a little muffled, both of my Sonotrim, and Sennheiser lav would still hear the fans of the C500.
Bellow is a comment I got from Shane Hurlbut ASC on using the C500.
The fan was a major problem. On Need for Speed which was the first feature shot with this camera we had Canon re work their firmware so that it would give us about 8 minutes. But this all depends on the heat in the room. Many takes on the film were compromised because the fans came on and we had to cut. You take the good with the bad sometimes. I would not suggest this camera ever for an docu/interview camera.
My sound package is a Sound Devices 302 mixer, with a Schoeps MK41 with a Cut 1, my wireless system is a Lectrosonics 210 with Sonotrim lav mic, and Sennheiser MK2, I usually have a sound recordist with their own package, they usually have the sanken COS 11. I like the sound of the boom (Schoeps) it has more bass and depth, it seems to sound more natural to my ear? the Lav Mics are good most often concealed, and sound a little muffled, both of my Sonotrim, and Sennheiser lav would still hear the fans of the C500.
Bellow is a comment I got from Shane Hurlbut ASC on using the C500.
The fan was a major problem. On Need for Speed which was the first feature shot with this camera we had Canon re work their firmware so that it would give us about 8 minutes. But this all depends on the heat in the room. Many takes on the film were compromised because the fans came on and we had to cut. You take the good with the bad sometimes. I would not suggest this camera ever for an docu/interview camera.
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Mitch Gross
Veteran
It's gonna be pretty expensive over time if you keep running these fans off regular batteries. At least set yourself up with something you can recharge!
C-Mac
Well-known member
I rarely use a lav mic. I have 2 Sennheiser ME66 Mics and 1 ME64 that I have been using for years. Ned may not like them, but that is his opinion. You can look at the reviews on B&H and see that not everyone agrees with him. IMHO, if you get a boom mic in close that alone is 80%+ of the battle. We have our work professionally sound edited and the company always comments on how good our audio is.... Is the ME66 the best mic out there, no, is it good yes... when our clients want the best, we hire a dedicated sound person. I have 2 Lav set ups but only use them in situations that we feel warrant them. Boom is my preference. The test was done as we would shoot interviews. We would place furniture pads on a wood floor.
Best Regards,
Chris
C-Mac
Well-known member
B. Berry, you have a nice sound kit. I prefer boom also. I also prefer a dedicated sound person, but sound people in my area can be expensive and my interview client's frequently don't have the money for the extra position. I would definitely like Schoeps and Lectrosonic in my kit, but for the time being, I have opted towards more lighting gear and kids, LOL.
Like you, the fans on the C500 are too loud for my taste.
Here's the fans I ordered. The dBA is 35 @ 9000 RPM which is louder than the ADDA fans that AbelCine used dBa is around 20 I think @ 7000 RPM. However that is at 12v, I am running these at 9v. Also, 6v was not optimal for keeping the camera temperature warning from coming on.
https://www.amazon.com/Evercool-Eve...F8&qid=1477479404&sr=8-5&keywords=35mm+x+10mm
Having seen the part, I would think you would be able to switch out most fans with the AbelCine part. I basically tried to replicate their part. If your friend fabricates a part for you, I'd be interested in seeing it.
Thank you B.Berry!
Best Regards,
Chris
C-Mac
Well-known member
I agree Mitch. I would guess 6 AA batteries should get me through most days. I have added a toggle switch to turn the fans on and off when not needed. I do have some rechargeable AA batteries that BH sold me with a flash battery pack. They worked well with my canon 600ex flash systems under heavy usage, so I am hopeful. I may have to get some new ones as they are getting old.
I appreciate all your responses hear Mitch and look forward to picking up one of your 7Q+ units.
Thank you Mitch.
Best Regards,
Chris
C-Mac
Well-known member
Hey Kinok,
Not sure exactly, but I was thinking of using velcro to put it right above the 3G-SDI side panel, maybe on my wooden camera cheese plate... I intend to take the unit off an on as I switch from interviews to B-Roll or if the client is cool with it, just shoot B-Roll with my Canon 1Dc. I really love using that camera for B-Roll. I rarely shoot anything hand held or on the shoulder as I have back issues these days, so I am not too worried about the added weight.
Trying to find solutions. Please share your solutions. I look forward to seeing how others may solve these issues. The good news is, the fan issue seems solvable.
Thank you Kinok.
Best Regards,
Chris
nedcam
Well-known member
When I had full size Chevy vans (now squeezed into a 2015 Pilot) I carried 4 furnie pads for hard floors. Now they are havens for mice in my garage (and I am afraid to unfold them) because the speed and stripped down manner in which we move precludes shlepping them around. You are right: Nothing sounds better than an overhead boom, but it has to be a Schoeps. My issue with Schoeps is that not only can I not afford them (or Sankens), but they tend to pick up everything. Seems if you have a controlled environment like a studio or are doing drama where audio really counts, then I'd boom with a Schoeps.
The ME66 is the successor of the old ME80, both have always been in my mind the "Poor Man's Boom", so with such a great axe like a C500, why pair it with something meh? For those of us old enough to remember, it was created when Sennheiser had to come out with something affordable when the frugal DV crowd entered the market (hence the name of this website), as did the tripod manufacturers, etc., when they realized the new video folks entering the market had less budget to spend than us older film folks. The market was at that time dominated by the Senn 416, which could be used as a hammer, and now it's successor the MKH60 is considered the standard boom. When I'm in a scrum like a press conference, I can look up and see a forest of boom poles and at the end are invariably MKH60s, I can tell by their ass end, it's the default boom hammer now, although it's $1500. I never put much currency in B&H reviews except for comments about build quality, breakage, since I don't know the person writing. But I digress, we're talking about this fan noise...
I do non-fiction TV, corporate and docs so fortunately for me my talking heads will have a music bed and/or nat sound under them 84.63% of the time, which helps because the horrible HVAC I run into, the camera fan noise, when using a lav, is the least of my audio problems, which is why I couldn't understand the concern of the OP, since a boom with hard floors to me is mutually exclusive. I do tend to go boom more often when the client insists on me hiding the lav, especially with females wearing something challenging. I carry black, white and tan lavs to steer the client into letting them show. White has saved my butt on medical gigs and cooking shows because most TV shows want the mics hidden and I am not all that great avoiding rustle, that's when I think "boom". But I digress...
There are times when I am in a cinema verite situation where I have to use the internal mic or on board a short shotgun doc style, that the fan would kill me, which is why I paid attention to this thread in case I rent a C500, but I couldn't understand why someone would go boom with wood floors, and I apologize for calling your mic meh. You'd have to do a switch test between the ME66 and the MKH60 to tell.
MAKE AUDIO GREAT AGAIN!
See ya,
Ned
The ME66 is the successor of the old ME80, both have always been in my mind the "Poor Man's Boom", so with such a great axe like a C500, why pair it with something meh? For those of us old enough to remember, it was created when Sennheiser had to come out with something affordable when the frugal DV crowd entered the market (hence the name of this website), as did the tripod manufacturers, etc., when they realized the new video folks entering the market had less budget to spend than us older film folks. The market was at that time dominated by the Senn 416, which could be used as a hammer, and now it's successor the MKH60 is considered the standard boom. When I'm in a scrum like a press conference, I can look up and see a forest of boom poles and at the end are invariably MKH60s, I can tell by their ass end, it's the default boom hammer now, although it's $1500. I never put much currency in B&H reviews except for comments about build quality, breakage, since I don't know the person writing. But I digress, we're talking about this fan noise...
I do non-fiction TV, corporate and docs so fortunately for me my talking heads will have a music bed and/or nat sound under them 84.63% of the time, which helps because the horrible HVAC I run into, the camera fan noise, when using a lav, is the least of my audio problems, which is why I couldn't understand the concern of the OP, since a boom with hard floors to me is mutually exclusive. I do tend to go boom more often when the client insists on me hiding the lav, especially with females wearing something challenging. I carry black, white and tan lavs to steer the client into letting them show. White has saved my butt on medical gigs and cooking shows because most TV shows want the mics hidden and I am not all that great avoiding rustle, that's when I think "boom". But I digress...
There are times when I am in a cinema verite situation where I have to use the internal mic or on board a short shotgun doc style, that the fan would kill me, which is why I paid attention to this thread in case I rent a C500, but I couldn't understand why someone would go boom with wood floors, and I apologize for calling your mic meh. You'd have to do a switch test between the ME66 and the MKH60 to tell.
MAKE AUDIO GREAT AGAIN!
See ya,
Ned
C-Mac
Well-known member
I am going to let your opinion and my opinion on the ME66 stand as it is... simply one opinion vs another.
As far as an "axe", I think a few of us on this thread feel the C500 is more of a chainsaw, LOL. However, if we can cool her off a bit and quite her down, she may just sing for us!
Best Regards,
Chris