FS7: I returned my XDCA-FS7 Extension and 7Q back to BH

benjaminreece said:
James, curious as I'm a fan of the f35/fs7- what do you find you are using mostly these days? If you were shooting a hip hop video, without seeing the treatment, and had to pick, which one would you pick? :)

or point me to a post where you might have discussed this, please :) thanks!
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I'm not sure this question really fits the thread, but I'm happy to discuss it.

The largest answer is that my clients are frequently making the choice for me, whether they ask for a camera by name or not, and that choice is generally the FS7, even when I think the F35 might be a superior choice. In some cases it's a budget issue - my F35 is PL mount (didn't do a Nikon conversion), so I have to use PL glass on it, whereas my FS7 can run with Nikon, Canon, PL and E-mount glass. For productions that don't want to pay $500+ per day for Ultra Primes, the FS7 becomes attractive for that reason. Another is that there are producers who decide they want to shoot in 4k for reframing flexibility in post. That's not my preferred mindset, and they underestimate how the F35 looks when reframing is required, but so be it. The FS7 is also more lightweight, rigging wise, which reduces support requirements on tripods, stabilizers, and sliders. I'd love to take my F35 on more shoots, but the FS7 is an easier sell. Now, mind you, if a production, like a hip hop video, wanted to use strobes, I would try hard to use the F35, because the global shutter would make a difference.
 
Viddovation said:
I'm not sure this question really fits the thread, but I'm happy to discuss it.

The largest answer is that my clients are frequently making the choice for me, whether they ask for a camera by name or not, and that choice is generally the FS7, even when I think the F35 might be a superior choice. In some cases it's a budget issue - my F35 is PL mount (didn't do a Nikon conversion), so I have to use PL glass on it, whereas my FS7 can run with Nikon, Canon, PL and E-mount glass. For productions that don't want to pay $500+ per day for Ultra Primes, the FS7 becomes attractive for that reason. Another is that there are producers who decide they want to shoot in 4k for reframing flexibility in post. That's not my preferred mindset, and they underestimate how the F35 looks when reframing is required, but so be it. The FS7 is also more lightweight, rigging wise, which reduces support requirements on tripods, stabilizers, and sliders. I'd love to take my F35 on more shoots, but the FS7 is an easier sell. Now, mind you, if a production, like a hip hop video, wanted to use strobes, I would try hard to use the F35, because the global shutter would make a difference.
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thanks James! This was a great read & made a lot of sense. It's sort of what I supposed but the background helped contextualize.

Maybe a parallel to DPs who want to shoot film but market/client demands make them move to Red or Allexa (digital)?
 
Viddovation said:
The "new" condition part might get you. I'm not sure they mean to permit you to take the camera out, try it, and put it back in. And remember, you'll start the hours meter, so much testing at all would show up.

Why not rent the camera once to make a decision?

Or, alternatively, visit a dealer and try out a demo camera on the shop floor.

And if that's not an option, you might still talk with a few dealers, and see if any of them would want to send you a demo unit for a day on the basis of winning your business. You might try to talk to the folks at EC Pro in New York, explain your concerns, and see what they might be willing to do for you.

To me, it's not new if you take it out of the box, turn it on, and play with the XLR ports. If I pay new price, I wouldn't want to receive a unit that had that happen.
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If I rent a camera, that's $400 less I have to spend on the camera. As it is, I'm pooling several credit cards together to try to make this purchase.

There aren't any dealers that are conveniently located (one of the disadvantage of living in farm country--no stores without making a whole day trip).

One place in Mass offered, but when I took them up on it, they didn't follow up.

There's one on eBay, but at the rate it's bidding, it will cost more than a new one when that auction finishes.

In the strict sense of the terms, if I return the camera to B&H in the same condition, with everything as their return policy states, it seems they should honor it. Yes, it will be 'open box', but still conforms to their return policy. I think perhaps I will e-mail them about it and try to get a specific answer.

I realize that I won't get this:

fr.jpg

But I do not want to end up with this:
fr.jpg
 
basspig said:
Compared to the Shogun, Oddyssy's display is antiquated and low resolution. Why would anyone monitor 4K video on a 1/2 HD monitor?
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Not sure you have compared the two but the Odyssey by far is a better monitor with much better functionality.
But...vanilla and chocolate I guess.
 
This is starting to sound like a 'vinyl is better than digital' debate.. How is a lower resolution monitor better than a higher resolution monitor?
 
Really?


41 MP

5G6d7a6l.jpg


12 MP

OPiZkIel.jpg


It's almost as if the amount of pixels doesn't tell the full story re the quality of the image....
 
We're not talking sensors, whose receptor site size is important. We're talking ability to present fine detail. You won't see fine detail on a 1MP monitor, and evaluating 4K footage from a 12MP imager on a 1MP display is just silly. I'll take 2.2MP display over a 1MP display any day.
 
Given the rest of the characteristics of two panels being similar, resolution matters. 720P is okay for framing a shot, but I wouldn't be able to achieve critical focus on it. When I got the Shogun, I was amazed at how much I was missing out before. I can easily nail the focus without resorting to peaking aids. Not to mention, a couple more stops of dynamic range. I see nothing magical about OLEDs. What a shame that they didn't put a full HD panel on the Odyssey 7Q. That and allowing the user to choose from compatible SSD drives.. I might have considered it. But that screen turned me off from the get-go. Too coarse. Too granular.
 
basspig said:
evaluating 4K footage from a 12MP imager on a 1MP display is just silly.
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Still curious how you formed your opinion.
For years still photographers have evaluated very high megapixel images on screens with various much lower resolution and smaller color space monitors (especially in comparison to the mp ratio from 4k to hd.) Also, think billboard vs iwatch: you only need x amount of pixels for a certain sized medium and viewing distance. Beyond that certain pixel density, adding more pixels has an extremely diminishing return (unless you're in marketing). At that point, contrast plays a greater part in regards to sharpness and the ability to use your monitor for focus. Question. Have you used either the shogun or 7q for 4k acquisition yet? Looks like your shooting with an EX3 on your website.
 
Pixel density required relates to the angular resolution of the human eye. Someone with 20/20 vision needs a display of 300ppi if the view distance is one foot, as is the case with many of these small on-camera monitors. 12-15" viewing distance for a 7" display is pretty typical. If you have 20/20 vision, it’s generally accepted that at the optimum viewing distance each pixel is now one arc minute in size.

When shooting full HD, by having a 1:1 pixel mapping between camera signal and monitor, you also eliminate quantizing errors. With 4K input, the quantizing errors are back, but not as bad as with the 720P display.
 
Thanks for your input. So, according to the math presented, the shogun has a slight resolution advantage over the 7q when viewed closer than 1.6 foot (roughly, assuming 20\20 vision) So if these monitors are mounted on top of a camera like the A7s and using a neckstrap for stabilizing (like one man bands sometimes do), or mounted on my Ronin, there will be no perceived resolution advantage.
 
A 200% advantage is "slight"? Not to me it isn't.
The way I have my rig setup, the difference is stark. I'd rather have the Shogun's monitor than a SmallHD monitor of half the resolution. The difference jumps out at me, even without a side by side comparison.
 
Mark or Mary Ann (both names in your signature and I don't want to presume),

This is easy. You list your location as Connecticut. Why not make a day trip to New York and visit one of the several dealers in town who carry both the Odyssey7Q+ as well as the competition and see for yourself? When discussing monitoring functionality and image quality, surely your own eyes are the best judge?

Off the top of my head, AbelCine, B&H and Adorama carry both and while I'm not positive about Adorama, I know for a fact that the other two have both on active display in their showrooms.
 
That Youtube video is a must-see. Excellent comparison and I learned a lot about the Odyssey 7Q which reinforced my decision to get the Shogun. (It also appears that Odyssey considers audio an after-thought).


That 'small' difference in PPI is dramatic in practice. It amounts to more than doubling of the detail and also eliminates the 'screen door effect' when viewing at distances I like to work at particularly when focusing. On the Shogun, I can pay attention to focus and composition, without fiddling with 2X magnifiers to see if I'm really in focus. Shogun is more ergonomic in that sense.
While it's true that from far away, they both look the same, that's not how I work in reality.
Heck, on my editing workstation, going from 105dpi to 157dpi made a night & day difference. The pixels went from a daily annoyance to invisible--all I see now is the content, not through a 'screen door'.


Mitch, I avoid NYC like the plague. I don't even consider it an American city. It doesn't recognize my 2nd amendment right of self protection, yet it's a dangerous environment, and as some people in Times Square found out last year, even the police will shoot at random bystanders while pursuing their perps. I'll go as far as JFK airport to pick up relatives 1x a year, but not into the city itself. I like it up here in the northwest corner, surrounded by wilderness and a few farms. I can go for a walk without needing to pack heat.
 
May I humbly beseech you to please keep this going - it really is very funny.

Just a thought. People pay money for this quality of comedy. If you could somehow monetise it, you could top up that Paypal account and get that FS7 bought.

And then you can treat us to series 2, when the little guy from the wilderness battles with the dark forces to return it "as new", when it's clearly got traces of gunpowder on the pre-amps.

All in Cine Alta "photographic quality that is unmatched in the industry." :D

I don't know - you're the expert. These suggestions are just my gift to you.

Go basspig!
 
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