I really don't get it!

A

accentphotography

Active member
What is the big deal about the new HDV cameras? I shoot 90 -120 minute videos and I do not have the clients who will pay for a Blu-Ray video. Why is everyone so crazy about the D90 when they are downscaling to a Vimeo seen movie?

Don't get me wrong, I see a great use for the D90 as a alternative to the 35mm film adaptors out there but I cannot decide about picking up a second DVX100b or going to the D90. Am I wrong or doesn't HDV take a crap load of time to work in?

I use a MacBook Pro 2.33 Dual Core and if I import a HDV in Final Cut Pro, the 1 hour import takes about 12 hours to render so I can see it in FCP. Thats not cool. I cannot even see the import coming in. I only get a white window where the video should be.

Just to move a title took like two minutes to render to see where I put it. Maybe I am just doing something wrong. Anyways ... is the DVX100b destined to be a fast extinction dinosaur or is it going to be wanted and loved for a little while longer. I really wished digital would SLOW DOWN. Every time I get ahead and pay for something then something better comes out and you have to sell everything to move to the next level.

This may be in the wrong area but this IS specific to the DVX100b (my recently purchased first REAL video camera).
 
My son would love that answer as he feels he is so "rasta". My problem is trying to keep up with the competition. I see all of these forums posting about the HDV here and there but I would like the answer from the "average Joe" video guy who makes simple utilitarian video for customers who only want so spend $25.00 on a 2 hour DVD. I will milk this cow as long as I can but having a family of five it gets difficult to keep buying the latest and greatest because the technology of DV to HDV is changing. Just going 4:3 to 16:9 is a question in its own as I do not have a real demographic of how many of my "average $25.00" customers actually use the newer LCD, Plasma or HDV technology. It seems the government here is pushing "digital" so hard when it is really not needed and in my view not that great. But can the standard DV hold up well for those who really do own the 720p or 1020p TV's? From what I have seen at the local video stores ... the DV on HDV looks like crap. Especially when the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players get prohibitions from the movie company about upscaling normal DV DVDs because they want you to buy the high dollar HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. Personally I think it is a government scam because someone got paid off to force convert everyone to the "digital revolution" here in the US.

My town (Wilmington, NC) was the first to go 100% compliant on the digital signal only and it sucks. Reception is bad and changes from station to station and heaven forbid a cloud overhead. Its like watching Direct TV with a tornado coming (thats means its pretty frozen, pixilated and overall bad).
 
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Well I think that if you are going to shoot off a D90 or any HD DIGITAL format, I wouldn't edit on a laptop... I use an older iMac 2.16 GHz 2 GB RAM to edit and if I upconvert to 1080, it lags even in QuickTime!!! 12 hours to render????? There has to be something wrong there... The D90 sounds great and all with its nice lens options but if you are a real videographer, then you want all the manual controls of a REAL video camera! If I had to choose between a DVX or a D90, I would personally go with the DVX. Plus, you can always get a plugin like Topaz Enhance that actually takes the info from the surrounding pixels and properly uprezes it. Topaz Enhance is a plugin for FCP and Premiere Pro.
 
Andy, I will check out the plug in. Thanks for the advice. I have a Dual 1.8 G5 which was made for video (1gb SATA RAID, 6gb RAM) but I have not tried it for the video as everything with my batch processing and special event packaging software runs faster in my MacBook Pro. I was told that some of the software is using the duo core to its limits which seems to help.

Yeah, I could not believe it when I imported the HDV to a FW400 external drive from the camcorder and FCP said "rendering 12 hours". It was actually close to that time. I will need to check the settings as I have no idea why people like HDV considering what I have been through. Maybe I just need to give it more time.

As far as the DVX100b goes ... yes I want another one. I only hope I can get to the point of having the 35mm lens adaptor look without being too much work. My wife shoots with me and she is already complaining about the size let alone she ever pickup the camera on the glidecam 2000.

All I need now is a good mic, good wireless and a good on camera (not to bright or expensive) light source and I should be set. I have a guy trying to sell me a 3.5x Century achromate for $150.00 but I am not sure if I would need that or a 2x if I went to a 35mm lens adaptor.

Thanks!
 
If you don't need it, you don't need it. It depends on how you market yourself. In your case it sounds like there's no problem sticking with SD, which is absolutely fine if lit, framed and edited properly. But HD is a nice buzz word for video marketing as well, and can look great if that's what you need. I did a shoot with my HVX yesterday, in fact, where I used DV tapes to match the other cameras and because the client needed it to be a standard DV format. It's not the first time that's happened, either. HD is great, and in identical circumstances it will pretty much always look better than the same shot on an older SD camera... but not so much that it's always worth the investment.
 
There's no good format for distributing HD to the general public... so DVD is for me at least the most common end-product, and it looks like it will be for a while. I think you'll be fine in SD for a while. When you start having to turn gigs down because you can't deliver HD, then think about it...
 
Personally, I feel downconverted HD generally looks better than shooting in SD to begin with. Granted that depends on the cameras compared.
 
ullanta said:
There's no good format for distributing HD to the general public... so DVD is for me at least the most common end-product, and it looks like it will be for a while. I think you'll be fine in SD for a while. When you start having to turn gigs down because you can't deliver HD, then think about it...
Click to expand...

This has been my thinking for a long time, ever since about 2005, when I purchased a new DVX100B and people told me I was investing in a dead format. HD was going to be all anyone would buy before the end of the year, and I had 12 months of usage AT MOST before I'd have to move up to HD.

Of course, almost 4 years later I'm still blowing my clients away with SD > DVD videos. Haven't had ANY complaints, not even from people viewing their videos on LCD and plasma HDTV sets.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I'm still buying DVXs. For the price and the ability to tweak the image, it's a hard combo to beat. The HMC is nice but it costs about 33% more to purchase and a newly tweaked post production workflow as well. If you need HD, buy it. If your clients are those "$25 DVD" people then forget it.

By the way, not sure what you mean by that....please tell me you're not really only charging $25....??
 
I don't want you to freakout but it's 2009, there were no WMDs and there's a guy who is president that's... Nvm I just assumed you accidently slipped into a wormhole that brought you 5 or 6 years into the future from where ever/whenever you were.

1) Yes HD is better, even downconverted
2) Yes the DVX is still viable
3) Yes you will be delivering on SD formats
4) Yes even though your clients want HD and don't understand that the final format they will recieve is SD: see 1
5) Here's the kicker, even a $500 camera like the HF100 can visually blow away the DVX
6) I still shoot on the DVX sometimes, but it's really more from a nostalgic POV; I started on it, it's a great cam and dog gonit I just miss working with it sometimes... sometimes
7) Tapes suck, Solid State rocks
8) Some people think tape is safer, I never had an SD card give me errors or gum up the heads (mostly cause... nvm, might be info overload already)
9) Tape can seem more convenient depending on your habits and lack of access to cheap HDDs
10) D90 is passe, very 2008 and very flawed; way better vDSLRs on the market now. D90 is the Ford Pinto of video cameras.
11) Unfortunatly this is a tech based biz, you have to be ready to make tech based investments or risk not being viable
12) You are starting well behind the curve, you can still run in the race but you will be an "also ran" and tech is quickly pulling away from you
13) Your computer situation doesn't look better :(
14) The Apple G5 is "the fastest personal computer ever made"
15) "Hey we're gonna go ahead and switch to intel processors, thus going COMPLETELY PC and charge you Mac prices for it if that's OK? What am I saying of course it's OK, you guys are sheep... embrace your Mac superiority complex... let it be your guide"
16) Steve Jobs is a marketing guru, Mac is more of a religion, ex-zelot myself but whatevs, people here will still argue their "beliefs"

I could go on and on and on but man I really think you and your wife need to sit down and do some heavy analyzing of your financial situation and how far you realisticly want to take the video service industry. You are starting quite a bit behind the curve, but honestly the new tech is phenomanally cheap, especially for what it's capable of.
Don't buy the latest or greatest anything, buy used or refurbed.
Middle of the summer is gonna be your best bet to upgrade your camera because of all the people making the switch to video DSLRs when the GH1 comes out. additionaly, there will be a glut of decent traditional video cameras as videographers and consumers embrace and DEMAND larger sensors and interchangeable lenses.

The biggest problem you have is your computer situation, HDV is probably the easiest HD format to edit, I could rant about how out of date your computing gear is but, I'm kinda ranted out for the day. You should really look into PCs if you can't afford a Mac upgrade.
Cheap PC with a Core2Duo CPU, 4GBram + FW card + Entry level editing software = under $500
If you have to stick with MacOS: Current entry level Mac Book or iMac + Final Cut Express = $1200-1400
Hard Drives are dirt cheap, especially when you consider the price of gas. I gaurantee you that you will spend more on driving to your gigs than you will on your HDD by the time you fill that drive up!!! USB2.0 only externals are usually way cheaper then USB/FW/eSATA. And they go on sale more often too. If you insist on FireWire external, just know I and a ton of people I work with don't bother because the USB2.0 drives work just fine.

A good starter HD cam is the HF100, about $500 and trust me it'll blow away your DVX. It has mic in, headphone out, manual controls (not the easiest to use, but for the price...) manual focus is hard to use on it but the Instant Focus on it is scary good. And if you use this as your "B cam", you can legitimatly tell people you shoot HD and still have the DVX on set looking all prosumerish while the HF100 does the dirty work! And trust me when you see the footage you will use the HF100 clips more. Even though it's a little bitty cam with few features, it's just a way better image.
Here's some stuff I shot with it:
http://vimeo.com/1396249 (check out the instant focus)
http://vimeo.com/1400221 (has awesome macro abilities, this was fully manual and even did some rack focusing)
http://vimeo.com/2538983 (this was shot with a DiY lens adapter, it just won a Remi Platinum Award for a Dramatic Short at the Worldfest)

DVX is still great, but if this is a business you are serious about, you are lagging way behind in all aspects. If you were a kid I would have just dissed you and moved on, but you have a family to support and I felt you deserved some real world answers instead of some BS hand holding. If you are having "this" dilemma, THIS LATE in the game, it's gut check time bro! Business is rough and in this economy it takes no prisoners.
 
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That was a fun read :)

Not gonna argue with the logic, would definitely reinforce the computer upgrade options argument.

As for external drives...just buy an OEM drive and a separate enclosure. You can get a USB2.0/eSATA 3.5" enclosure for about $30 and a 1 TB super nice WD Caviar Black HDD for $100. A full 1 TB of external storage on blazing fast eSATA for $130 is a pretty sweet deal. There's definitely no reason why people should run out of storage space these days.

And computers are relatively cheap. You can get 6 or 8 GB of RAM (depending on your system) and a fast quad core processor on a nice board with all the extras for under $1,000. HD video (especially AVCHD) will still be a beast to edit, but soooooooo much less so than on your current setup.
 
completely agree with the OEM drives and DiY ext case, just not sure about his tech level (although I did make assumptions LOL)
But I've seen 1TB ext USB2.0 for under $90 on sale!!! Maybe even $79... can't 'member exactly.
 
accentphotography said:
I really wished digital would SLOW DOWN. Every time I get ahead and pay for something then something better comes out and you have to sell everything to move to the next level.

This may be in the wrong area but this IS specific to the DVX100b (my recently purchased first REAL video camera).
Click to expand...

What do you mean? You just bought a DV prosumer camera.. the DVX100 has been out since 2003 and the miniDV prosumer scene has been popular for over a decade (VX1000, EZ1U) and you're fussing over "digital" should slow down? A bit late to the game are we?

We're at a point in time where the industry is crossing over from SD to HD... it's more apparent every day.. If you want to buy the DVX, then prepare to squeeze every last drop out of that camera, make a return on your investment quickly and don't feel bad if you need to upgrade to HD in the near future.
 
Wow ... great and fully vented information. I love it. Still in LMAO mode. Is it safe to come out of my bomb shelter? Okay .... ullanta, casalen and scapsinger ... got it and yes they want $25.00 videos. One school wants them at $20.00 each but that is supposed to be for 200 of them. Well IMO that is ok. BUT and I repeat ... BUT, some of these schools hire you because they cannot meet the minimum demands of out of town companies and you tell them .... hmmm ... okay ... money is money and a $500.00 minimum is better than nothing when there is no work and who knows ... maybe it will turn a higher number.

I have been lucky to survive and I have almost all of the major dance schools photography in my area but I am trying to get the video as well. Theres something about working three months hard and taking another three months off that I really like.

I guess I have not figured out how to get the wedding cliental that will spend $2,000 plus on a video. Most here scoff at $1000 - $1250 edited with a highlight section. I live in Wilmywood and everyone here is a pro stills or pro video guy. I was here first and every year more and more come and go at about the same rate. Raise my price? I would love to if I did not have to take care of a large family and take a gamble on little or no business at all.

My wedding photography has gone from busy to less busy to really little business to there is nothing past this month in weddings booked. Maybe its the economy or maybe it is me, but this is full time and has been for a long time with no part time job saying "welcome to Walmart".

Johnny Cola ... you rock the truth man and I like that too. Let me guess ... your married, five kids (none from my loins), mortgage, lots of different insurances for everyone, studio overhead, kid in college, kids driving, wife in college, gas for everyone, food for everyone and you still manage to pay cash for everything? I tell you, I want more but I guess I have to just sit and enjoy everyone else's success until my wife can work to help with the income so I can change some plans to shoot better, wiser, more artistic and for more money. Like you said "you deserved some real world answers instead of some BS hand holding. " Thanks for understanding the family too as most do not see how difficult it can be taking care of others while trying to hold down the fort and you are right, "Business is rough and in this economy it takes no prisoners". I really do appreciate the words.
 
As far as
Johnny Cola said:
completely agree with the OEM drives and DiY ext case, just not sure about his tech level (although I did make assumptions LOL)
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I have been in computers since the 8086, TRS80 and VICs. I had a Lisa (original pro mac in the day) NuBus Mac Clones (still used to power 5 Sienna Photo printers printing 296 dpi on real photo paper) and a host of other Macs from single to dual 867 G4's, 3- eMacs 1000 and some older PC's. I have done a lot of networking, scanning, importing and so on. Of course the technology keeps going and I cannot buy every new tool that comes out. I am sitting on mostly FW400 externals. Most computers have 4 HDs inside and are networked. Some are used as rendering farms for large jobs. I have a pile of USB 2.0 externals but prefer FW400. I just appreciate the thinking of FW and how it daisy chains one to the next (unlike USB). I hate USB hubs especially when they have to have additional AC power. I also hate Dongles and hardware Keys but hey ... sometimes you have to pay real money for those big programs. I will admit I jumped off of the PC bandwagon a long time ago but that was only because I had so many PC's dying whereas every Mac I own (1995 and up) still works and has never gone to a technician. Granted i do not write code or a lot of HTML but I have the basics down. I leave the graphics to my wife as she is a trained graphics artist in freehand and computer. But as far as being a expert on video ... that I am not. My friends call me a Mac Guru as I answer all of their questions and teach them what they do not understand so they do not have to go to the "Genius Bar" or call a technician. One day soon I will build a wonderful PC editing machine but for me thats like trying to quit a good habit that works. The PC systems have been slutted and the quality has gotten so bad (IMO). PC's work if you keep them off line.
 
booggerg2 said:
What do you mean? You just bought a DV prosumer camera.. the DVX100 has been out since 2003 and the miniDV prosumer scene has been popular for over a decade (VX1000, EZ1U) and you're fussing over "digital" should slow down? A bit late to the game are we?
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Yes I am a bit late in the game. I have had DV for about five years, bought a HDV-HC1 a couple of years back as it was the best I could afford at the time ($2,000.00 or so) and I had hoped it would be the answer with the CMOS, HDV and 16:9. Hated it! 60i sucked the little one! Lost all hope for a while as I did not have the understanding and when you search the forums for information as a newbie you get lost fast in the amount of choices out there.

I stumbled across the DVX100b and was amazed at the DV abilities. Blew the options area of my HC1 out of the water. Wow ... controls ... I like that. But what about the HC1? Its HDV! It should make better video than this old 2003 modeled DVX100 shouldn't it? Well it didn't. Now I was disillusioned and needed high end quality on DVD format.

Yes I understand the HDV can be down converted but I am very busy in a market that is seasonal so time was not my friend. Now what? I guess I will keep on going. Use what I have to the fullest of my limited ability, dream of bigger, better and faster equipment and try to learn from the words of wisdom from this, my favorite, video forum.

So are any of you guys professional photographers??? I know ... jack of all trades equals master of none.
 
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I had a similar laugh recently when I saw one of Sony's "Webbie HD" cameras.
So...this thing records Hi-Def video intended to be put on YouTube or Vimeo?
WTF? The "hi-def" resolution supported by those websites isn't really even Full SD quality!

I know "HD" is a hot marketing term right now, but things like this just prove how ignorant people are.

I see a specific need in the camcorder market for a "semi-pro" web camera, but I don't think manufacturers would do it. This could be used for web-only productions that do not require high resolution, yet do require lots of manual control. It would shoot SD with a nice fixed lens, record to flash memory, have great audio connections, top-of-the-line manual controls like the DVX100, and cost under $700.
 
3 things.
1) There's no comparison in quality of my DVX shorts and my HVX/HPX 500/HPX 170 shorts.
I don't have a blue ray player and most festivals, even major ones, ask for Digibeta tape to screen HD. Digibeta tape is SD but has better colorspace / reliability than DVD.

Anyway, I'm either seeing my work downconverted to SD digibeta and projected onto a movie screen, downconverted to DVD and projected, or downconverted to DVD and played on my 46" plasma. Again: no comparison to the HD originated material and the SD. HD is still way better.

2). You should probably not be considering the D90 at all with teh GH1 out in June. It's too early to tell for sure, with only a handful of folks on the boards getting them early from Japan, but it looks likely that the GH1 may be the D90 killer and Adapter Killer.

3). I wouldn't get a DVX100B, I'd get the HMC 150. No question.

So really if I were you I'd be considering the HMC 150 vs. the GH1.
 
accentphotography said:
Yes I am a bit late in the game. I have had DV for about five years, bought a HDV-HC1 a couple of years back as it was the best I could afford at the time ($2,000.00 or so) and I had hoped it would be the answer with the CMOS, HDV and 16:9. Hated it! 60i sucked the little one! Lost all hope for a while as I did not have the understanding and when you search the forums for information as a newbie you get lost fast in the amount of choices out there.

I stumbled across the DVX100b and was amazed at the DV abilities. Blew the options area of my HC1 out of the water. Wow ... controls ... I like that. But what about the HC1? Its HDV! It should make better video than this old 2003 modeled DVX100 shouldn't it? Well it didn't. Now I was disillusioned and needed high end quality on DVD format.

Yes I understand the HDV can be down converted but I am very busy in a market that is seasonal so time was not my friend. Now what? I guess I will keep on going. Use what I have to the fullest of my limited ability, dream of bigger, better and faster equipment and try to learn from the words of wisdom from this, my favorite, video forum.

So are any of you guys professional photographers??? I know ... jack of all trades equals master of none.
Click to expand...

I'm not really sure what you were trying to say as your sentences kept on running into each other.. but the DVX100B has a stretch 16:9 mode which is a huge improvement over the original DVX100 and you can actually do pretty decent 16:9 DVDs with it... You won't be able to say you shoot in HD so just blow them away with your DVX work.
 
My own, personal observations:

1. I like the film-like quality of DVX video images. I actually prefer it to so-called "downrezzed" HD.
2. The DVX will be viable for years yet to come. I would be willing to bet that DVXs will still be shooting eye-popping videos five to ten years from now.
3. The vast majority of TVs in the US are still SD 4:3 CRTs and the players attached to them are standard DVD players.
4. Shoot the video with the DVX. The client will like it.
5. A $500 HD camera cannot hold a candle to a properly lighted, composed and framed DVX video.
6. I tried a couple of HD cameras and ran back to my DVX100B.
7. I prefer tapes. Period. Hard drives fail. I don't trust them. I like having all my footage safely archived on tape. Tapes are more convenient and cheaper.
8. I have, indeed had cards fail (in other applications). Not only that, cards are very expensive and cannot be economically used for archival purposes.
9. Tapes are, indeed, more convenient.
10. Don't know anything about the D90 and don't need to.
11. Keeping up with the techies is unnecessary. Use what you have and what you can afford. A lot of stuff is still being shot, and sold, on 16mm film.
12. I use a DVX100B and I most definitely do not feel that "tech" is pulling away from me. Just because new technology is available, it doesn't mean I have to break my bank just to be "with it."
13. I use a PC (which I built myself for $300) with 2.8G Celeron, 1,5G RAM and 250G HDD. I edit on Adobe Premiere Elements 3.0. It does what I need it to do.
14. I hate MACs. I hate them with a passion.

HD cameras of the DVX's level (with 24p) are expensive; editing HD requires a more expensive computer than I can afford right now; an NLE capable of editing HD costs $800 to $1000; editing HD is more difficult than SD; HD is overkill at this point in time, as most stuff will be viewed on DVD.

I like my DVX100B and see no reason whatsoever to spend thousands of dollars just so I can say I am "with it" with HD technology. Most TVs are still SD, most players are still DVD, and images captured with a DVX100B look fantastin when projected on a full-sized theatrical screen and rival anything shot with 16mm film. In fact, I have people ask me if my stuff is shot using a 16mm camera. I used to shoot with a Bell and Howell 70DR 16mm camera and one of the things I like about the DVX100B is that it is capable of shoot images that look very much like film.

I have no intention of "upgrading" to HD anytime in the near future (or ever, most probably). If I ever "upgrade," it will be when I can finance a project on 35mm film because, in my opinion, that is the only thing I consider superior to the DVX100B.
 
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