Nathan Troutman
Active member
I just wanted to say thanks for the great post. A lot of what you're doing in practice here is what I was thinking about in concept. Your post was very helpful.
GH2 I need the GH2 to do EVERYTHING - Am I crazy?
- Thread starter Nathan Troutman
- Start date
I just wanted to say thanks for the great post. A lot of what you're doing in practice here is what I was thinking about in concept. Your post was very helpful.
Nathan Troutman
Active member
You wouldn't happen to have a few contacts at Panasonic that you'd like to share?:grin:
thisisapocalypse
Well-known member
Honestly I'd just look for something that will be hard to break..maybe a DVX100. Teach exposure with a light meter and some 35mm film still cameras (even an old dslr), you can get those for nothing as well as darkroom equipment (which almost everyone is just giving away nowadays, even good stuff.) I just don't think you can really learn exposure with a modern video camera of any kind. If you're gonna go DSLR, go for a Canon 60D or 7D--I love the Panasonic GH1/2 cameras but they are not very tough in terms of build.
Last edited:
DPStewart
Veteran
THIS!
If your goal is to teach the technical aspects of film making and exposure and audio and ALL of the basics then a DVX100 is a VASTLY SUPERIOR tool for that job.
It has EVERYTHING that you would generally encounter on industry standard equipment ALL in one place and BUILT TUFF.
As for the GH2 - Tascam audio recorder? NOT recommended for high-schoolers! ONE time getting lost audio or a sync issue on one of your Musicals and your party is OVER. Not worth it.
Hi-Def video render/edit takes way more computer power (money) and storage space. But if you MUST have 1080 then a used HMC150 will be fantastic and have ALL of the professional features of the DVX.
Seriously.
The DVX100b and HMC150 are VERY professional cameras and earned their reputations over and over again.
Pluses: Fantastic color. NO rolling shutter. No half-screen when a camera flash happens.
For educational purposes I cannot think of better cameras.
Last edited:
maranfilms
Veteran
HMMM, Not sure I understand what you mean by this statement. But I disagree. You don't need to use a light meter to learn exposure, you can learn exposure with zebras, histograms, waveforms, and developing an eye for exposure. Digital camera's are a different tool. I'm not saying it's not a good idea to know how to read a light meter. But if you read the OP's post, he never mentioned shooting film in anyway. And with the digital format, a light meter is not really mandatory. The only time I use one now is if I want keep my exposure exact in different locations, And it's for piece of mind more than anything. I haven't used the new light meters for working with digital cams, but I cant see how they could differ much.
I can tell you first hand, having a job teaching production, kids have VERY VERY short attention spans today, mainly due to the internet and the lifestyles we live. So with a basic course, try not to stray to much from being basic. Which I find is very easy to do. I try to teach a basic three point lighting, then a few variations when we come to it. Mainly for creative reasons, same goes for audio, camera, set design, make up, ect... And I constantly rotate the group to keep them interested and on their toes. I also use a lot of posative encourgement. Even if it stems from a mistake. I try to always point out the good.
HERE'S AN EXAMPLE
WEEK 1. Have like one kid direct, one on slate/script super, two on camera, one on audio(boom), and so on depending on the class size and what were shooting. Then rotate it for week two, three ect... Everyone sets up and breaks down. We spend about a third of the course length on learning the gear, then the remainder on writing a basic short script, then we shoot it, I cut it, and we show it at the year end recital. lots of fun teaching kids to make films. When we start off, most of the kids have never even opened a light stand, so thats an idea as how basic it starts off as.
oh yeah,I REALLY STRESS, SET SAFETY!! I make sure anyone plugging in and unplugging the lights wear rubber gloves (I have seen electrical arcs shoot out from a socket and zap folks when using high watt lights, dont ask me how but it happens) we sandbag EVERYTHING, i MEAN EVERYTHING! inside and out. If we have cables all over, we tape them down. I also make sure we use either fresnels, or scrim all open face lights. I've seen a lamp ( light bulb) explode. even know the scrim cuts it's lumens down, it makes it safer to use. The last thing I want is for a kid to get hurt or scared for life because I didn't do my job properly.
We also keep a fire extinguisher with us at all times, along with a basic first aid kit. Cover your ass, and all basis. There's lots of ways to get hurt on a set, especially when your a wound up hyper twelve year old kid with no experience working on one.
I agree with DP stewart on camera choice, my students love the bigger more impressive looking camera, their not pixel peeping, and like so many have a false conception that the bigger the cam the better. It actually makes them feel more important, and more professional. I think it's because they dont have access to one. And they see dslr's in walmart, so they think it's not as good. We all here know it's silly but you have to remind yourself their kids. I have also found using a camcorder with a depth of field adapter has made them all much better at lighting and working to get a good image out of the cam, due to it's inability to shoot easily in low light situations, they also use to learn reflectors. Plus it's a way to teach focus pulling or first AC WORK.
Sorry to stray from the topic, but I thought it might be helpful to throw out a few tips and tricks I have learned along the way to help a fellow teacher. good luck with your class, it's lots and lots of fun watching the kids grow into aspiring filmmakers.
This is true to an extent. When recording a play usually an adult is there to monitor tech. It isn't something that would be left to a group of kids to do on their own. On camera audio would be way easier though. There are a lot of redundancies that we use when shooting a play. Multiple cameras and mics, soundboard feeds etc.
I don't disagree that an HVX makes a lot of sense too. We used to use GL2s and they were gtg. In our situation the benifits of the dslrs is that they can do dual duty as a photo camera as well as video. We can then spread the costs over more class budgets then just a movie production class. So we can have more cameras for photo and movie class. For us the budget dictates alot of things. Our GH2's are actually shared and signed out to any student with some background.
I wouldn't touch darkroom stuff. You need space, ventilation, sinks etc. It is much easier to find a computer lab than a space to put a darkroom in a school that doesn't already have one. Then you waste time with developing etc. Get a light meter and also teach histograms.
Last edited:
DPStewart
Veteran
"Oh I LOVE kids...anything can and will happen!"
~Ian Malcolm (Jeff Goldblum) in Jurassic Park
Ha so true. I have been rethinking the HVX and why I moved away from cameras like it in my situation.
- I wanted to get rid of tape. We were having intermittent issues capturing over firewire. This is an IT issue but when they can't get the computers to recognize the cameras and issues pop up it became a big issue. A lot of my minidv cameras for some reason stopped being recognized. Who knows. IT adds new stuff to the image all the time and changes permissions etc. I dunno if it is a camera issue. This was also an issue when we were using the GL2's and decks. So I was/am burned out on capturing.
- We were moving to HD with all of our cameras having a mixed workflow of HD and SD was somewhat of an issue. Moving away from tape meant moving to HD for the most part.
- The 3 GL2's we had (Previous AV director didn't like Panasonic) were looked at by some of the powers at be as being too specialized. Spending alot of money on a few cameras just to use in a couple classes was a big issue. I actually heard this week by a coworker about how those were the worst purchase we have made. Not because that was true but because they were percieved (not by me) as being too expensive to let kids use regularly. The coworkers belief that a large amount of cheaper cameras that were easy for any student to pick up and use were better than specialized gear. Regardless of how much of a quality hit you were taking on your production or teaching.
- The GL2s we had wouldn't work with our DV mixer because of firewire issues. So we sold the mixer and went to multicam editing.
- The GL2's are bigger. When a kid is carrying all the crap they already do giving them a pelican with a GL2 and a tripod is a bit cumbersome compared to a GH2. But that was only an issue because we were required to use hard cases because the powers at be were afraid that the kids would break cameras in softcases. All of our GH2's are in good soft cases and surprisingly they haven't exploded.
- Kids have video DSLRs. They bring their own to class. All different types (nikon, canons, some pannys). Getting the best out of what they have is cool and is a force multiplier. It used to be that every one would have crap quality video cameras. Maybe one rich student would have a GL2 or HVX or whatever but they would always borrow our gear to shoot. Not so much anymore the rich kids have 7d's. They are going to be shooting in HD on dslrs at home.
- My former student who is shooting now for Camp4 collective is using DSLRs. Our latest guest artist came with a box of 5d's. They are getting more widespread use because of their flexibility.
-I find that my goals are building on basic photography skills more than specialized video skills for my normal classroom students. I feel that for the general High School student who is not thinking about a career in video production that learning how to use a still camera first and transferring that knowledge to video will give them more usable skills for their future. It would be great if they could all go through photo 1 before my class but it just doesn't happen. So teaching proper exposure composition and lighting on a dslr makes sense to me over just teaching them that on a video camera.
My more specialized students should definitely get more training on a HVX style camera but for the everyday 10th grader I am not sure if it is as important as learning how to use a still camera properly.
The downsides are
- A lot of my decisions were not centered around what would be the best tool for shooting a production but what makes sense in my situation and what is deemed ok to purchase by others.
- The GH2's aren't great for event type work. They are definitely way more work than a HVX and we try to turn them into a hvx by adding dc battery packs, xlr audio etc. I am thinking about an AF100 in the future for plays and events. Not sure this is the best choice but I have been thinking about purchasing a more industry standard camera with all the dials and buttons in the right spots. It just has been on the back burner due to cost.
- Audio is not as easy. Sure you can pop a rode on it and call it a day but when you start thinking about external recorders it gets a bit much. But on the Gh2's we do use wired lavs and wireless kits on the hotshoe much like we did with the GL2's. Though the GL2 xlr adapter was a POS. Throwing a Dr-40 or H4n just complicates things but gives you xlrs and phantom if you need it.
- GH2's aren't as robust as a t2i or gl2/hvx etc. Ours seem to be holding up pretty well. The 14-140 is big delicate and slow I don't recommend it the 14-42 is probably better to give kids. But we have been giving them out with nikon 50's attached lately and leaving the zoom lenses in the bag. It seems like a robust enough package.
So those are my thoughts looking back. It was hard remembering how I got to the point where I am now. But this conversation definitely helped me a lot thanks OP.
Last edited:
K.L. Cleeton
Member
I'm pretty new these parts, but just thought I would throw my 2 cents in. First of all, I have to confess I have never used the GH2. I am strongly considering buying it, but have to sell my other gear first. I have been running a Canon XHA1 and a HV40 to do live events like weddings and shoot some short films. For the short films I mostly use the HV40 as a test camera and an emergency backup. I can say from experience that I wholeheartedly wish I would have bought a DSLR instead of a traditional camcorder. In my very humble opinion, the traditional camcorder ends up being more expensive to use, because of tapes and the lens adapter. Getting a shallow depth of field is next to impossible with the stock lens on either of my cameras and by the time you buy an adapter and the lenses, you have spent a small fortune.
Now, what I haven't mentioned to this point is that my first film class experience was in high school. I went to a relatively small school in central Illinois that was home to a class film class (try saying that 5 times fast). We had the opportunity to learn from 2 teachers that have been awarded multiple Emmys. Needless to say that expectations for all of us were ridiculously high. I graduated from that class five years ago, back then we were using only XL1's, but were severely limited in what we could do. We were taught about and understood the concept of choosing different lenses, but didn't have an opportunity to use it in practice. Now, the class is preparing to move over to DSLR's.
The point I am trying to make is that high school students can and will be engaged enough in the technical aspects of filmmaking that you don't have to dumb it down by using simple cameras. In fact, I would argue that when simple cameras are used, students get frustrated because the story they are trying to tell does not look the way they wanted. I don't know what your resources are as far as personnel, but if there is any possible way to format it so that half of the class is focused on storytelling and the other half is focused on technical aspects, then by the time the class is over all of her students will be very well-rounded and everything that is making a film.
Finally, shameless plug: if anybody is interested in some really awesome used equipment, then check out my post here. http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...ackage&p=1986142505&highlight=#post1986142505
Now, what I haven't mentioned to this point is that my first film class experience was in high school. I went to a relatively small school in central Illinois that was home to a class film class (try saying that 5 times fast). We had the opportunity to learn from 2 teachers that have been awarded multiple Emmys. Needless to say that expectations for all of us were ridiculously high. I graduated from that class five years ago, back then we were using only XL1's, but were severely limited in what we could do. We were taught about and understood the concept of choosing different lenses, but didn't have an opportunity to use it in practice. Now, the class is preparing to move over to DSLR's.
The point I am trying to make is that high school students can and will be engaged enough in the technical aspects of filmmaking that you don't have to dumb it down by using simple cameras. In fact, I would argue that when simple cameras are used, students get frustrated because the story they are trying to tell does not look the way they wanted. I don't know what your resources are as far as personnel, but if there is any possible way to format it so that half of the class is focused on storytelling and the other half is focused on technical aspects, then by the time the class is over all of her students will be very well-rounded and everything that is making a film.
Finally, shameless plug: if anybody is interested in some really awesome used equipment, then check out my post here. http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...ackage&p=1986142505&highlight=#post1986142505
Nathan Troutman
Active member
Per the discussion here I made a few adjustments to the initial purchase of all GH2s. I was able to find, through another DVXuser, a pretty good deal that is providing us a used Canon XHA1 & also a used Canon HV20 all for $1,000. This will be combined with a GH2 as our initial offering of video acquisition options. As several posters had suggested, I think this offers a broader background of experience possibilities for our students. It also provides us a true camcorder option for those moments when this is needed.
Like many people here, I feel that the best image capture is on "larger sensor" cameras like the GH2. However, there are times for other tools & a reason to provide this experience as well.
Now how I'm going to match an HV20, XHA1 & GH2 is going to be interesting for filming this musical. I'm actually thinking of bringing in a Sony FX1 to shoot opposite of the XHA1 for camera left and camera right. The HV20 would be for a master & GH2 for interesting cut-aways. Should be interesting. Would be fun to fly the HV20 and use the GH2 for the master. I'm pretty sure I can get the FX1 and XHA1 to play nice.
Like many people here, I feel that the best image capture is on "larger sensor" cameras like the GH2. However, there are times for other tools & a reason to provide this experience as well.
Now how I'm going to match an HV20, XHA1 & GH2 is going to be interesting for filming this musical. I'm actually thinking of bringing in a Sony FX1 to shoot opposite of the XHA1 for camera left and camera right. The HV20 would be for a master & GH2 for interesting cut-aways. Should be interesting. Would be fun to fly the HV20 and use the GH2 for the master. I'm pretty sure I can get the FX1 and XHA1 to play nice.
xqzt
Well-known member
Great Thread. I also teach filmmaking to high schoolers and middle schoolers and as every year transitions we think about what cameras & gear to add to our collection. I think you made great decisions with the variety of different cams suited for different needs of production, different cams with different strengths and sacrifices. Interested to see out it works out with gh2. We have been running canon vixias with great results, I also bring an old DSR250(shouldermount pd150) which they love for its true pro feel and the lens rings are amazing. The quality is great and with as much footage as 30 students can get we stick to SD file sizes. For my more advanced students they can step up the canon to HD and learn to conserve. One thing I make sure of is to bring in a film cam(super8 or 16 bolex) give them each 20seconds of a film cartridge. This shows them to shoot exactly what they need and also gives them a sense of how the formats and tools change through time.
Here's a link to a promo I did for them and a kickstarter for our Film Festival next year!
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1634910367/tapa-urban-youth-film-festival-and-program
Here's a link to a promo I did for them and a kickstarter for our Film Festival next year!
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1634910367/tapa-urban-youth-film-festival-and-program
That will be great. The XHA1 is a sweet camera and gives you the pro layout. The thing with plays/musicals they don't happen all the time so you could beg borrow or rent equipment for them twice a year if you need to.
FrameFarmMedia
Veteran
Seeing as its students/education/film production I bet you could get some local production houses or rental places to give some good rates or even bring them on as sponsors.
Or even cable access. A lot of my students who don't have equipment will borrow stuff for free from the public access stations. If you have a good working relationship with them there is a lot of benefits. Our local channel will air our student films and productions and the students like it when they are flipping the channels and see themselves or their work on cable.
FrameFarmMedia
Veteran
Great idea... I still remember when I first got into television 11 years ago calling my mom every time I had a show on air. lol
maranfilms
Veteran
just FYI, The xha1 and hv20 match beautifully. I have used both on many productions. The A1 has great settings. good luck, you got a great deal. have fun
Nathan Troutman
Active member
You better believe I'm going to play the poverty card!
What I'm super-excited about is running student projects as movie trailer pieces before major motion pictures shown in the theater! The group I'm working with is going to be operating a full D-cinema movie theater as a not-for-profit organization. The other thing that is also exciting is as a not-for-profit we have a lot of flexibility in creating this program. For example - shooting test projects for local businesses with the hope that they will then donate to our organization.
XQZT - very nice program. Sounds like a really fun school.
And I agree with Tommp that I didn't want to purchase a whole set of camcorders just to shoot the once a year live event. What really sold my on this decision was being able to provide students a set of different options, for differents styles of production & situations. The HV20 is going to be a good first starter. The XHA1 opens you up to a more pro platform & ENG styles. And finallly you have the GH2. And all of the sudden everything just went manual, with a completely added dimension of DOF, that produces trully cinematic material but also advances significantly the complication of pulling off the shot.
I can't wait to set-up a dolly shot and between getting blocking, lighting, grips, focus & sound all working together, 2 hours later we have our 20 seconds of footage! People have no sense just how long it can take - even for the pros - to shoot even just a single shot & just how hard everyone works, no matter how big the budget. I don't know if I ever worked on any indie-film shoot that DIDN'T involve 12 hour days - and half the people on set are working for FOOD!