I need some guidance...Concert type shoot

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DVX100Shooter

Veteran
I am shooting an event next week that will be much like a concert. Various dance groups performing on stage. The place has hired a full audio crew and hired me to shoot the event. I did an event in this same arena back in April and I used my Lectrosonic wireless to capture my audio but noticed drops and hits throughout that shoot when I watched the tape back.

So this time around I wanted to do without the wireless if I could and go with a portable Audio Recorder like the Zoom H4N. I contacted the Audio Engineer today and he told me to reconsider using that to capture audio out of his board because he will be doing the mix for the house (arena the event is being held). So there is no telling what kind of audio I could get from that board if it's not mixed right. He also said it depends on what board he will have that night if he could mix it a certain way for my recorder to get a good mix.

My camera will not be close enough to run a hard line cable from the board and the folks at the arena do not want any cables on the floor even if they are taped down, they still won't allow it. That is why I used wireless the first time. The audio guys usually set up their boards right at the stage off to the side and I will be back in the house on the floor which is a great distance between me and then.

So what are my options? I need to get a good mix!

Although its not perfect, I thought about getting a shotgun mic and placing it on a stand next to where my camera will be (or attach it to the camera) and run that into a small field mixer and then run that audio into the camera. It won't be perfect but is that an option?

If push comes to a shove, I can use my wireless again but I want to stand clear of the drops and hits of static from interference with other signals in the arena.

This arena I am shooting in is on a college campus where the basketball team plays their games, just to give you an idea of what I am talking about.

Thanks for any help or suggestions you can give me.
 
quick undetailed response.
Since you are talking in advance..see if there is an option for him to get a console
with 1 extra aux buss (2 would be nice-stereo)
so he can create your own mix and send it just to you.

Another option is take a split of all the mic's and feed your own console
and create your mix from there. You'd need to hire your own guy
to do that.

Record to a separate recorder since you cant lay cables.

You want a good mix as you said..
to rely on some room mic's ONLY are going to sound pretty low end.
Its great to have room mic's to add some realism but not in a big venue
as the ONLY mic.

In a basketball arena is going to sound very ambient. (not tight)

Do yourself a favor..find the money and hire a sound guy.
You can try to find yourself a music soundguy..who mixes live pa's or studio stuff.
They are generally in a different price bracket (cheaper than a video/film guy)
and in this case, you want someone who can mix music which MOST video guys cant.




DVX100Shooter said:
I am shooting an event next week that will be much like a concert. Various dance groups performing on stage. The place has hired a full audio crew and hired me to shoot the event. I did an event in this same arena back in April and I used my Lectrosonic wireless to capture my audio but noticed drops and hits throughout that shoot when I watched the tape back.

So this time around I wanted to do without the wireless if I could and go with a portable Audio Recorder like the Zoom H4N. I contacted the Audio Engineer today and he told me to reconsider using that to capture audio out of his board because he will be doing the mix for the house (arena the event is being held). So there is no telling what kind of audio I could get from that board if it's not mixed right. He also said it depends on what board he will have that night if he could mix it a certain way for my recorder to get a good mix.

My camera will not be close enough to run a hard line cable from the board and the folks at the arena do not want any cables on the floor even if they are taped down, they still won't allow it. That is why I used wireless the first time. The audio guys usually set up their boards right at the stage off to the side and I will be back in the house on the floor which is a great distance between me and then.

So what are my options? I need to get a good mix!

Although its not perfect, I thought about getting a shotgun mic and placing it on a stand next to where my camera will be (or attach it to the camera) and run that into a small field mixer and then run that audio into the camera. It won't be perfect but is that an option?

If push comes to a shove, I can use my wireless again but I want to stand clear of the drops and hits of static from interference with other signals in the arena.

This arena I am shooting in is on a college campus where the basketball team plays their games, just to give you an idea of what I am talking about.

Thanks for any help or suggestions you can give me.
Click to expand...
 
There should be someone in charge of coordinating wireless frequencies for the event. Figure out who that is and get in touch with them.
 
I believe the Zoom H4N records 4 channels - 2 from the built in mics, and 2 from the inputs.

Place the H4n dead center stage pointed at the instruments, AND get a board feed of the show. That's called a matrix recording, and it sounds better than a straight board feed alone, or a straight stereo mic recording alone. Your cables will only run along the front of the house, so the management probably won't gripe. If they do maybe borrow another recorder and get the board feed right at the board.

You'll have some mixing options after the fact too!
 
Chadfish said:
I believe the Zoom H4N records 4 channels - 2 from the built in mics, and 2 from the inputs.

Place the H4n dead center stage pointed at the instruments, AND get a board feed of the show. That's called a matrix recording, and it sounds better than a straight board feed alone, or a straight stereo mic recording alone. Your cables will only run along the front of the house, so the management probably won't gripe. If they do maybe borrow another recorder and get the board feed right at the board.

You'll have some mixing options after the fact too!
Click to expand...
are you saying put the recorder right in front of the stage dead center?

Hope the guy likes over modulated monitor feeds.
 
Rippie said:
are you saying put the recorder right in front of the stage dead center?

Hope the guy likes over modulated monitor feeds.
Click to expand...

Given his limitations - where would you put a stereo mic Rippie?

Your scenario could happen if the monitors are pointing at the H4n mics. Center stage and up a bit will usually get the stage instruments pretty well, while the board feed will favor the vocals. I've done it and it works like a charm. I suppose I can't just make a blanket statement without seeing the stage setup, but if your ears are hearing it OK your mic should be able to.

I'm trying to work within the limitations this situation has presented. And a matrix recording always gives you more options in post than any single source method. The Zoom lends itself to matrix recording. Also the further back you place the Zoom, the more out of phase your 2 sources can get, meaning you will have to nudge the stereo mic track back in time a little. Further back mic placement will your recording to acquire more room sound too. You may or may not want that.
 
if my only choice was a stereo pair..
i wouldnt put them on top of the stage where 1 single instrument can over power the rest of the sounds. (ex- 1 loud guitar amp thats pointing right at the lead singer, and stereo mic.)

Id really have to see the room and situation just as you mentioned
to make the correct call on where. but I do know it would be back at least 10-20ish feet as to get a more overall picture of the sound,
but hey thats just me.

I think in order to make the correct decisions for this exact situation would be to think....

who hired me,
where does that person fit in on the "whos in charge" scale, and lastly
what level of importance are they putting on this camera recording (and also final use)

If the recording is of the highest priority to the client..thats where you
step up and tell them THIS IS WHAT I NEED TO MAKE IT HAPPEN.

If the client comes back and says..do the best with what you got..
then i'd end up doing what was mentioned.
A house feed + stereo pair.
I wouldnt want to release a distributed DVD with audio like that though.
But if its a recording to sell to the band members parents..then sure.



Chadfish said:
Given his limitations - where would you put a stereo mic Rippie?

Your scenario could happen if the monitors are pointing at the H4n mics. Center stage and up a bit will usually get the stage instruments pretty well, while the board feed will favor the vocals. I've done it and it works like a charm. I suppose I can't just make a blanket statement without seeing the stage setup, but if your ears are hearing it OK your mic should be able to.

I'm trying to work within the limitations this situation has presented. And a matrix recording always gives you more options in post than any single source method. The Zoom lends itself to matrix recording. Also the further back you place the Zoom, the more out of phase your 2 sources can get, meaning you will have to nudge the stereo mic track back in time a little. Further back mic placement will your recording to acquire more room sound too. You may or may not want that.
Click to expand...
 
I do think since this is a Dance group situation rather than an actual band (i think thats the case)
what other mic's are being used other than for an MC?

Its it mostly CD playback? or is there a live band? if its strictly music playback..
the House PA guy will be sending pretty much the same mix to the speakers as the one you would want.

Possible to get a copy of the cd and lay it back in later?
lots of questions to be asked.
 
DVX100Shooter said:
I am shooting an event next week that will be much like a concert. Various dance groups performing on stage. The place has hired a full audio crew and hired me to shoot the event. I did an event in this same arena back in April and I used my Lectrosonic wireless to capture my audio but noticed drops and hits throughout that shoot when I watched the tape back.

So this time around I wanted to do without the wireless if I could and go with a portable Audio Recorder like the Zoom H4N. I contacted the Audio Engineer today and he told me to reconsider using that to capture audio out of his board because he will be doing the mix for the house (arena the event is being held). So there is no telling what kind of audio I could get from that board if it's not mixed right. He also said it depends on what board he will have that night if he could mix it a certain way for my recorder to get a good mix.
Click to expand...

You did NOT mention whether the audio consists of played-back music or is a live band? If it is only playback trax, then the only reason I would even bother putting out any microphone is to pick up the audience reaction. And maybe live sound from the stage if you are talking about tap-dancing or something that produces something acoustically interesting.

If they are offering a feed from the FOH mixer there is absolutely no way you should pass up that opportunity. Especially if all the music is playback trax, then you will be getting the very best "mix" you could ever hope for. If they are playing back full cuts for each performance group, I would just ask for digital clone copies of the original trax. You cannot do any better than that. Or at the very least connect your H4N to record a feed from the mixer. And Chadfish's suggestion to use the other two channels to get a live-mic POV recording of the hall (from wherever the H4N/mixer are) is brilliant.

Even if it is a live band, a feed from the FOH system is still at least 80% of exactly what you need. And the other 20% can be captured from live mic(s) at your camera location. In any case some kind of stereo mic arrangement at the camera location would capture everything else you need: 1) A "reference track" to sync the clean music trax (from the mixer) to. 2) Hall ambiance (sounds like you will have WAY MORE than you will need ;-), and for audience reaction (applause, etc.)

Even without previous negative experience, I would NOT use any wireless system that cost less than $3-5K to get the audio from the FOH mixer to the camera location. Way too prone to problems (even WITH frequency-coordination), and completely unnecessary if you have a separate recorder (H4N) and they are offering you a house feed. No brainer, IMHO.

Furthermore, note VERY WELL Rippie's warning about recording the announcer/MC microphone. You DO NOT want to be recording this through the air. Especially in a big echo-rich gymnasium. It will sound like they are talking from the other end of the Grand Canyon. A live-feed from the FOH mixer is the only viable option.
 
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You have the benefit of the H4N which will record 2 x stereo tracks at the same time. I did something similar a couple of years back with the H4, which only records two tracks simultaneously. I took a mono split from the PA mixer and placed an SM58 on a stand immediately in front of the mix position (PA guys tend to set up in the "sweet" spot!) to record the "ambience" second track. A mix of the two gave a reasonable (albeit mono) result. A judicious bit of reverb panned R&L in the final mix helped "spread" it a bit to give some stereo effect.

Personal choice - I wouldn't use the inbuilt stereo mics on the H4N for a gig like this, but go for a pair of rugged dynamics and roll off the bottom end.

Good luck with it.
 
Thanks for all the great suggestions. Just for the record this will be a performance with various fraternities performing cheorographed routines on stage. There will be no live band and the music will come from CD's. The whole stage will be mic'd. I will be set up on a platform about 20 rows back from the stage.

I will take into consideration everything everyone posted.

Time to call B&H and order a few items!

Thanks everyone!

Oh yea this will be output to DVD and I have no idea what they plan on doing with it after I present them the master. I just want the audio to match the camera work. Nothing worse than having good camera work and crappy audio!!!

Now if I put a stereo mic at the camera location for ambience and crowd reaction, should this be a stereo shotgun or something like the AT8022 X/Y stereo microphone by Audio-Technica?
 
Try a Rode NT4. Great Stereo mic for any occasion. Stereo shotguns aren't too great for recording this kind of thing.
 
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