I have an idea for workflow. shoot it down or hold it up.

O

obin

Well-known member
Have a way to edit "offline" files that are inside the online files! the same way my Canon 1ds can shoot low quality jpg files and store them INSIDE the RAW file! That would be really really sick. This way you could open your 720p cineform file and edit in 720p, then hit a button in your NLE and see your full on 4k with a ram preview, or see it in scaled down 4k to 2k ...then hop back on the timeline and edit your 720p "offline" redcode file...how about it? then when your on final edit you don't have to deal with ONLINE at all! you just render your current project in ONLINE MODE!!!!!

now that would work. I'm lovin it!!!
 
A 4k wavelet file contains a .5k, 1k and 2k version within itself. That's part of the way the compression algorithm works.
 
1- Being able to edit the files directly at offline resolution would be nice... and wavelets are intrinsically "multi-resolution". A 4.5K RAW file may give you weird numbers though (4520 / 2 = 2260), although you could simply resize.

2- Perhaps there could be some utility where you can copy + transcode (+ backup + make dailies?!) the Recode files at the same time. A production will likely need to:
- Copy data off the drives so that the drives can be re-used.
- View shot footage.
- Backup the footage.
- Generate dailies to send to execs and producers.

Now perhaps you can't do all four at once, but doing one or two of these tasks at the same time would be nice.

Suppose that during copying the files, the camera plays back the footage in real-time out via HD-SDI. The crew would be able to see the footage, pull DVD dailies off it, and have the footage copied into a computer data format (for editing).

Alterntively, being able to copy + transcode at the same time would also be helpful. This doesn't require trickery with the Redcode codec (and hence your NLE doesn't have to support that).
 
This is sick, so it will be a single multi res file to edit from as I was saying above??
 
Hmm... REDCODE RAW files aren't just wavelet compressed RGB, though, they're bayer-pattern sensor data. If you extract a 1K or 2K image from a 4K bayer sensor frame, does demosaicing still work? And if it does, can it be done in real-time?
 
obin said:
This is sick, so it will be a single multi res file to edit from as I was saying above??
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Obin, your CineForm Prospect HD setup has been doing this for some time. One of the big benefits of wavelets. At 4k it is even more useful, as more practical decoding levels to work with (2K, 1K, even 512 pixels are great RT proxies) without having generate separate proxy files. This is why offline can die and edit online at all times.
 
Chris Kenny said:
Hmm... REDCODE RAW files aren't just wavelet compressed RGB, though, they're bayer-pattern sensor data. If you extract a 1K or 2K image from a 4K bayer sensor frame, does demosaicing still work? And if it does, can it be done in real-time?
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It is totally RT (well it is with CineForm RAW ;) ), decoding to sub resolutions has a different demosaicing technique with is perfect for RT playback. It is easier to decode to lower resolutions, and the demosaic at these resolutions is easier too. The CPU intensive demosaicing algorithms are only needed for full res. output -- in Prospect 2K/4K we allow you to select a fast full res. demosaic for scrubbing and a quality rendering filter independently (allowing you to see full res at anytime without too much CPU overhead.) Red may follow suite, or do their own thing, either way expect CineForm RAW to be a player for Red One post. :)
 
Gordon Prince said:
4k in real time?
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Yes. 4K CineForm RAW in realtime, that includes two stream dissolves. We did this a few months back to prove today's dual proc Intel CPUs can do it.
 
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David Newman said:
Yes. 4K CineForm RAW in realtime, that includes two stream dissolves. We don't this a few months back to prove today's dual proc Intel CPUs can do it.
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Does it seem for only $5,000 bucks?! 4K? And Red published a Mac solution where 2K is $15,000? Now it's me who is lost here...
 
Gordon Prince said:
Does it seem for only $5,000 bucks?! 4K? And Red published a Mac solution where 2K is $15,000? Now it's me who is lost here...
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Our minimum system specs are likely to be different, plus those Red specs were withdrawn. Currently a tricked out Woodcrest Xeon system seems to work fine for 4k CineForm RAW. That hardware is well under $5,000 (and getting cheaper.) Using wavelet multi-res techniques you can run on (online edit) even cheaper systems (although Intel Conroe would be a good minimum system for running that way.) Remember CineForm products have been realtime for 4:2:2 1080p sources on single core 3GHz P4s, now 4K is 5 times bigger, yet today we have 4 cores (or more) that are 50% faster per core and RAW is EASIER to decode than 4:2:2. Online 4K post is completely reasonable.
 
Tom Lowe said:
David, what about color correction?
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Yes, real-time color correction. Although we couldn't do dual stream CC and dissolve without a but of a run up (play about 5 seconds before the dissolve) on our 2.66Ghz Woodcrest box. All the is improving, both our code and systems are getting faster.
 
My goodness but this is AMAZING! This seems unreal. I had to read twice only for... to believe. And if you weren't "the" David Newman I wouldn't believe it.

Can we expect an affordable Cineform for real people like ourselves? If you confirm, Red mustn't say so... differently than you correct?

David Newman said:
Yes, real-time color correction.
Click to expand...
4K for less than $5,000?
 
Well by next year (summer/fall) the Intel systems will be even faster, of course, so dual stream CC'd dissolves should work by then on a good system, I would assume? I don't CC until late in the editing process anyway, and by then the dissolves will be locked down.
 
Tom Lowe said:
Well by next year (summer/fall) the Intel systems will be even faster, of course, so dual stream CC'd dissolves should work by then on a good system, I would assume? I don't CC until late in the editing process anyway, and by then the dissolves will be locked down.
Click to expand...

Not even that long. Intel is due to release its quad-core "Clovertown" Xeons before the end of this year. We could have 8-core Xeon towers before Christmas.
 
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