I can't hear anything.

pest22o

pest22o

Well-known member
Okay I'm purchasing my audio equipment now So i went through some lists and saw some stuff, I'm just not quite sure what any of it does or how to use it.

can anyone link me a site that might be able to help me better understand what basic audio equipment I need, and what these things do.

I'm doing a short and a major scene is shot in a (outdoors) tunnel with dialogue, and I'm also shooting indoors.

So basicly can anyone recomend some ideas on what i might need and how it works.

Like everyone else I'm budget consience, but I do understand Audio is extremly important and I'll spend what I have to get something decent.
 
There is a very good book by Jay Rose - I think it's called Capturing Audio for Video (or something like that). Look up Jay Rose on Amazon - you can pick it up there. It's a great way to start.

Phil
 
You should seriously consider hiring a sound guy. I know it may not be in the budget, but if it is it's a better choice than buying a bunch of equipment you're unfamiliar with and having poor sound as a result.
 
Hiring a sound person, especially one with plenty of experience, will save you a great deal of money in the short term. It will cost money, but so will buying your own gear. Moreover, its unrealistic to expect to be a seasoned pro your first time out.

Hiring an experienced sound person, even at their full rate, will typically cost less than fixing compromised audio through ADR and foley.
 
I do post mostly.
!) hire a sound guy. In post I want a good sounding track. I can't help much if you have blown it in production. You are WAY more likley to get a deal on post if the production sounds decent. How can I use it in my reel if the dialog sucks.
2) Fire anyone on the spot if they say it can be fixed in post, they know nothing!
3) your MUCH better off hiring someone Unless you want to do sound as a profesion. Really it is better to hire someone than but gear, really.
 
Jay's book is called "Producing Great Sound for Film and Video" and a brand new third edition came out a couple of weeks ago. Absolutely a must read, especially for someone just starting out. Think of it as the first $30 worth of audio gear you buy.
 
So as an estimate, how much would a sound guy cost me, is a post one more expensive, then an onset guy?
 
See, but then I don't really have the equipment and I kinda wanna have some so I can learn and use it for future projects.
 
Most experienced sound folk will have their own core equipment package (renting additional bits as neccessary), and their day-rates will vary a great deal based on their experience and equipment.

If you're serious about learning production sound, consider hiring a grizzled veteran and working as their assistant. A word of caution, though: someone else will have to have to wear the other hats (director, DOP, etc.) while you focus on following orders. A couple of days spent hauling gear and laying cables could prove to be a goldmine of educational osmosis. On top of that, your chances of avoiding the ADR stage dramatically increase when you put a seasoned pro in charge of your production sound.

As for the cost of a production vs post-production sound person, don't get me wrong: you'll still need someone to edit and mix your audio in post-production. My point was simply that getting it done right is far more cost-effective than having to redo it in post.

A lot more cost-effective. Let's break it down thusly:

Good Production sound requires:
Experienced Production sound mixer
Experienced Boom opperator
Appropriate recording gear

Fixing it in post requires:
Novice production sound mixer doubling as boom opperator
Inexpensive/innapropriate production recording gear
Experienced ADR mixer
ADR assistant/editor
ADR recording studio
booking actors for ADR sessions
Foley artsist
Foley mixer
Foley assistant/editor
Foley recording studio

Don't just take my word for it, though, call up a few post-production houses and get quotes on ADR and foley. Foley is an oft-overlooked counterpart to ADR, since replacing production dialogue will generally leave a gaping hole where all the footsteps and cloth moves used to be.

Moreover, as Noiz2 pointed out, you're much more likely to get a good deal on the post-production audio if your production sound is rock-solid. Ideally, ADR should be a creative choice (tweaking line readings etc.) rather than a technical neccesity.
 
Good equipment is expensive, While I would recomend using a sound guy, for any production that you are making money on, having your own audio equipment, learning how to use it, and having it for small films is a great plus. But it is going to cost you. The innitial investment is probably worthwhile over time.

so first purchase a good boom mike, while you can spend a couple thousand on a schoeps, the sennheisers are excellent. I have a couple of MK66 and MK80s.. The 66 is about $450 and it is a great mike, and one of the more popular ones. Pros do use mostly the Schoeps etc... those can be around $1800 plus...

A recorder is a great investment for recording your own sound and a timecode one is a good investment to sync with your camera, although not totally needed. A simple clap slate works well to sync sound up. The timecode one is a great investment if your camera can take or send timecode.

I bought a sound system to use as a double audio recording, and it ran me about $6000.00 I went with sound devices, 744T and the 722 what a great system. Four channels of audio. You can save yourself some money by staying with the 702T (2 channel vs 4 channel) If you are using a double recording system to record dialogue, you can mike up to 4 people with this system. But save yourself some money buy a 2 channel recorder, if you need to record more or want to put your talent on seperate channels. ( Big plus...) You simply record 2 channels on the recorder, and the other 2 channels on the camera, then sync up the whole thing on post. Pretty easy....

A mixer is great, but not necessary..

Wireless is great to have, but hardwired systems are probably more foolproof, since you dont have to worry about interference etc.. But I use the Sennheiser Evo 100 and it is also really good.

Hope that helps..
 
Gaburbano said:
A mixer is great, but not necessary..
Click to expand...
Although you really need a mixer to take advantage of the 744t. The 744t has mic preamps on channels 1 and 2 only, channels 3 and 4 require a line level signal with a TA3 connector. An SD 442 mixer's a great counterpart to that recorder, since the 442 gives you discreet pre-fader TA-3 line outputs for all 4 channels, as well as two stereo outputs (one for the camera via breakaway snake, one for a stereo backup recorder if you roll that way).

A mixer has the added advantage of easier access to controls. Many recorders have level pots that are difficult to opperate with stubby fingers, let alone while wearing winter gloves. Worse still, manufacturers like Fostex and Tascam insist on using those awful knob and ring configurations that make potting individual tracks so frustrating.
 
SMuir said:
Although you really need a mixer to take advantage of the 744t. The 744t has mic preamps on channels 1 and 2 only, channels 3 and 4 require a line level signal with a TA3 connector. An SD 442 mixer's a great counterpart to that recorder, since the 442 gives you discreet pre-fader TA-3 line outputs for all 4 channels, as well as two stereo outputs (one for the camera via breakaway snake, one for a stereo backup recorder if you roll that way).

A mixer has the added advantage of easier access to controls. Many recorders have level pots that are difficult to opperate with stubby fingers, let alone while wearing winter gloves. Worse still, manufacturers like Fostex and Tascam insist on using those awful knob and ring configurations that make potting individual tracks so frustrating.
Click to expand...

Thank you that didn't confuse me at all (and just in case you're unfamiliure with sarcasam that was it)
 
Sorry. I'll break it down for you: the 744t can record 4 channels of audio. However, it only has two mic inputs. The other two channels are line-only. In other words; to record 4 mics into a 744t, you're going to need some kind of a mixer.

One of the cool things that differentiates the Sound Devices 442 mixer from other 4-in 2-out portable mixers is that each of the four channels has its own ballanced line output (using a tiny TA-3 connector rather than an XLR). So, you can plug in four mics, record each mic to a channel on a 744t, and still have a stereo output to send into the camera. In fact, the 442 mixer has two sets of stereo outputs: one with a pair of XLRs, the other using an ENG snake. ENG snakes are handy cables built for easy connection to cameras: a single cable with a quick release, that terminates in two XLRs and a headphone plug (which allows the mixer to listen to the camera's headphone output).
 
Option (listed best to worse)

A. Hire a pro. Dayrates are negotiable. In large cities like DC you will find plenty of pros always on the look out for fun and interesting projects that they will work for a substantially reduced price. You have to have your sh1t in order though; we all have worked for someone who thought making a movie would be easy and/or people can be BSed. We won't do it again and can smell that person a mile away.

B. Hire an up-and-comer. Colleges and technical schools are full of people who have a basic sound equipment package and are eager to build up more experience. It takes a bit more searching on your part to find them and overall your audio won't be as good as with a seasoned pro but it will be a good balance of cost vs results.

(NOTE: I do not suggest you try the "copy/credit" or "deferred pay" scheme; even amateurs only fall for this once and you want someone who has at least been on some sort of set before. Pay a decent, although non-pro, wage and find someone who has done a few movies already)

C. Read books like the one listed above, ask follow up questions here and other forums, invest a couple thousand into a basic audio kit, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, and then you can be the sound mixer on your movie....but that is all you can be. More then one hat and your production goes down the drain.

D. Same as C but have someone you TRUST do it. The trust part is key because if you get someone who agrees to do sound on a whim or without full dedication your audio will suck...HARD, and you won't know why.

E. Take the road most traveled by first-time digital filmmakers. Get a bunch of random people together to make a film, select a person at random to do audio, buy a me66, $50 shockmount, and a painter's pole, assume foam will protect from wind, run straight into camera, use one mic for all situations and Ipod headphones for monitoring, etc, etc. At the end of your production post question in forums asking how to magically fix all your audio in post.

The final step is for after being told you need to ADR everything. At which point you either put the film on a permanent hiatus while you slip into a deep depression,

or just finish with what you have and then wonder why no one wants to (or can)sit through your film,

or pony up the serious money and TIME it takes to ADR every single line of your movie. Pros can do, on average, 10 lines an hour (that is with experienced actors) A line is basically from breath to breath or punctuation to punctuation; NOT each actors turn at speaking. Quadruple that time if your recordist has less then a year's experience doing ADR. Triple that time if you and/or your actors have never done ADR before.

Also don't forget to factor in that most of time (not all) ADR deliveries are significantly worse then the original. Standing in a booth for hours and hours, deliverying lines with no one to react off of, and having to focus on the exact cadence of the original is not conducive to acting.

F. Find another line of work or hobby...this stuff is hard.

Note that option F is definately the worst choice because, although this stuff is hard, time consuming, money draining, etc, it is also fun as hell.

Good luck!
 
I'll toss in a rec for Jay's other book on post production in addition to his one on production. Lots of great tips and tricks and it really shows you how much goes into making good audio into fantastic audio. Also a great read on why you should do everything possible to get good audio in production.

wabbit - having no ADR experience I had no clue it took that long! I knew it was a bear but 6 lines a minute... and breath to breath... damn. My new goal in life is to know nothing about ADR and have no experience with it :)
 
Actually it 1 line every 6 minutes...on average. If a person went with option E they most likely don't have experience actors and that can really start multipling the time.

I would recommend that any filmmaker try ADR before they shoot one foot of their first production. It may be painful but it will serve as a good reminder of why you take the time to get it right on set. At the end of a long day even experienced producers will start rolling their eyes at the extra 30 seconds sound asks for. Remind them they can ADR it later and they shut up quick. :-)

Cheers
 
pest22o said:
So as an estimate, how much would a sound guy cost me, is a post one more expensive, then an onset guy?
Click to expand...

What it costs you depends on a lot of factors. How good a salesman you are, who you know, what your budget is, what the going rate in your area is.
The problem is that a well equipped sound person (production and post seem to cost out about the same) has somewhere in the neighbor hood of $30k - $X00k invested in equipment and it's hard to justify not charging. I have done full on Union gigs that paid pretty well and total low budget films that I did for free in both categories.
Union scale is around $650/day plus equipment rental. Post is "cheaper" (~$2.5k/week) per person per day but it takes about 10-15 man-hours per screen minute to do a full sound edit and a couple of weeks to mix. So for post you either have a crew or you take a long time or you lower the bar. Many low budget films have no money by post and they are all a week away from some festival deadline so most have a really low bar. If you've sat through enough low budget epics you know that some times they lower the bar so far you would need a shovel to find it.
ANY work the editor(s) have to do to fix production sound comes directly out of the time they have to make the film sound good.

Post folks want projects that are GOOD to work on. If a short looks great and the production is OK AND the director is into sound it can have a nice effect on your cost. If I can't show the final product and make myself look good then I'm only doing it for the money. Bring me something that could be really nice on a reel (and remember it needs to SOUND good to be of any use) then I am MUCH more likely to cut a deal.
 
pest22o said:
Thank you that didn't confuse me at all (and just in case you're unfamiliure with sarcasam that was it)
Click to expand...

Just this reply should tell you that you are venturing into something you are not ready for. Audio is about understanding and knowing the equipment you will be working with. How many channels of what type of interface and how they can and can not be used, mike sensitivities, polar patterns, frequency response - all things that are basics in audio. You need to know these things cold before work starts. What happens if you have a problem on the set? Who will be there to troubleshoot your setup? I have no doubt that all of this can be learned but do you want to learn at the expense of you project? I have been in audio for years (live sound) and I would hire a boom operator if I was shooting a film because with as much as I know about audio (I am an Electrical Engineer by trade and a sound engineer through years of work), I have never worked on a set and therefore am not familiar with the requirements. I could try to figure it out on the fly, but not when it is costing me dollars per minute. Hire a pro, watch what he does, pick his brain during down time and you might be ready the next time around.
 
doh thats what I meant... 1 every 6 minutes, 10 an hour for good talent just makes me kinda sick feeling... let alone having inexperienced talent and inexperienced adr'ist...

wabbit said:
Actually it 1 line every 6 minutes...on average. If a person went with option E they most likely don't have experience actors and that can really start multipling the time.

I would recommend that any filmmaker try ADR before they shoot one foot of their first production. It may be painful but it will serve as a good reminder of why you take the time to get it right on set. At the end of a long day even experienced producers will start rolling their eyes at the extra 30 seconds sound asks for. Remind them they can ADR it later and they shut up quick. :-)

Cheers
Click to expand...
 
A lot of good ideas here, some assumptions that aren't quite on target.

Shooting in a tunnel, as I imagine it, is a recipe for some nasty audio. The specific tunnel may make a big difference.

If you don't have the right gear or expertise, buying anything close to the right gear now is too late. I could buy ice skates tomorrow but don't expect me to do well in a figure skating competition or hockey match. Experience matters....a lot.

I'm trying to work with a film (video) maker now who did as you are hoping to do. The dialog tracks are a mess. He's now asking if I can fix them in post. I'm hesitant to take the job -- actuallly, at this moment, I would not because I wouldn't want mhy name on a project that I think will sound as bad as this will without major ADR. He doesn't have a budget for major ADR. I remain sympathetic with him, but the damage is already done.

Hardwired mics are also susceptible to RF problems.

* An me66 is not a great mic.
* A mixer with good limiter and preamps (among other things) is necessary.

Almost every experienced film maker I have talked to says they can get by if th eimage is a little off as long as the sound is solid.

Here's the "tough love."
You are courting disaster.
Good audio is not trivial.
This is a creative work that you hope to have on the shelf for many years.
Why do it so you'll have to make excuses for it for the rest of your life?


Regards,

Ty Ford
 
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