HVX200 vs. EX-1 for narrative?

M

mrmannn

New member
Oh boy, I hope I don't get kicked to the curb and stomped for asking this one, hehe. I'm currently producing a short horror film, and the two cameras my director is seriously looking at are the HVX and EX-1. The facts the we both know: HVX has an inferior pixel count... sub true 720p even, correct? EX-1 can pump out true 1080p at 24fps, as I understand it. DVCPRO HD vs MPEG-2 Long GOP codecs, better color space in the HVX unless going SDI Out of the EX-1. That about cover it? Hehe.

Here's what we KNOW: we will definitely be shooting with a 35mm adapter, with theatrical/festival screenings a high possibility. When we're talking about "blowing it up" to fit a screen that large, wouldn't the EX-1 technically hold up better? I'm thinking pure numbers here, and a 1080p signal should hold up better than the HVX, right? I'm assuming it would hold up better than the HVX in both actually enlarging it via digital projection, as well as (the unlikely) 35mm blow up? What about the "resolution" loss you get when you shoot through a 35mm adapter? Is starting out at a much higher resolution a no brainer, in that case?

Another point: post/visual fx. There are going to be one or two visual FX in the short... is there a reason to choose one camera over the other? Color space? Does the long GOP codec have any issues with visual FX/post?

"S" Curve/Cine Gamma: My director and I LOVE the cinegamma look that comes stock out of the HVX... VERY film like in tone. Does the EX-1 have a similar "cinegamma/s-curve" setting? Minor point, but one we're concerned with, nonetheless.

Lastly, what about the post workflow? My director seemed very excited about being able to edit HVX footage natively in Premiere on set. Honestly, I was very excited as well... the idea that between setups, we get a working idea of how things are cutting together is both fantastic for the shooting process as well as keeping enthusiasm and energy levels up. With the EX-1, he tells me there's no way for him to edit on set on a PC (he's working off a beefy new quad core laptop), and as he's VERY set on editing in Adobe Premiere, we're kind of in the dark with how to post this film on anything but a Mac. Suggestions, thoughts?

All in all, I understand all too well that there's a heated "debate" between the HVX and EX-1, currently, but I'm not here to add to that, or even concern myself with it... I'm just concerned with what is best for my project. Oh, lastly, I forgot... for encoding/burning to Blu-Ray, is there are reason to go with one camera or the other? (Perhaps the new codec Sony employed has issues with authoring to Blu-Ray?) Sorry for the long post, but I figure you guys could point a lowly producer in the right direction :) Thanks for your time.

Steve
 
Okay Steve, to be honest your post was a little lengthy for me to read it but here's a general opinion.

In terms of lightloss the updated HVX200a is comparable to the EX1. HVX200 does not have HD-SDI out but it does shoot to P2 in a 4:2:2 codec. The EX1 has HD-SDI out and shoots to 4:1:1 on SxS cards.

However, go with the HPX-170... the new guy from Panasonic. It has P2, 4:2:2, 20 variable frame rates, HD-SDI out, and lots of other sweet features!
 
There is considerable resolution loss with an adapter, but it is a pleasing look, unlike the resolution of a "bad" lens. I like it - but they're a pain to work with.

When deciding on a "look", you have to think in terms of the genre - science fiction horror; generally sharp, high rez, lots of chroma - gothic horror; generally soft, desaturated, lots of shadows. These aren't hard and fast rules, but they do apply to the psychology of an audience.

In my opinion the EX-1 might do better for the first, the HVX for the second. Don't know about the 170 - haven't seen one - but IF it was available, it may cover both bases.

I will say that of all the video cameras I've owned (many Sonys, two Ikegamis, Canon XL H1, even an old RCA TK76), I get more oohs and ahhs from films I've shot with Panasonic cameras (currently, HPX500 & HVX). The picture has a tactile feel that I haven't seen duplicated elsewhere

FYI, I shoot 720/24pn and I personally prefer it - as I've said many times - resolution isn't everything.
 
Well you have to understand the limitations of each system. Will there be stroble lights used? if so the EX1 wont be your friend. Will there be car mounted shots? if so teh EX1 is not your friend. Its CMOS sensor has drawbacks for all that fantastic resolution.

The HVX is better as a ENG/Filmmmaking/All around general purpose camera.

The EX1 is a great drama narritive camera. its lmited by its drawback in ENG and live event coverage properties.

The 35mbps XDcamEX looks amazing. you wont be sorry.

though the color and textural quality of HVX footage is something onto itslef.

Look at footage not specs. FOOTAGE FOOTAGE FOOTAGE. ignore camera.

The HVX "pixel count" is irregardless. The pixelshift makes it a 1080p sensor. LEave pixel counts to the engineers. Let us look at footage and decide form there.
 
In regards in post workflow, go with anything (NLE wise) that you guys are comfortable with. I use HVX200 and I have PCs that I edit with Premiere CS3, the thought of editing onsight was great, but I realized, I would never have the time to sit there and 'quickly see the edit' But I do love the idea of being able to see the shot footages right away without rewinding.

Any NLE software can do what you want it to do, but it's up to the person to see which he/she is comfortable with and do their magic to make it more visual enticing.
 
How exactly are strobe lights a problem? And car mounts... are you suggesting the EX-1 is "defective" if moved too much? Thanks.
 
TimurCivan said:
Look at footage not specs. FOOTAGE FOOTAGE FOOTAGE. ignore camera.

The HVX "pixel count" is irregardless. The pixelshift makes it a 1080p sensor. LEave pixel counts to the engineers. Let us look at footage and decide form there.
Click to expand...

So true!

I have been reading other threads where people are getting caught up in specs vs specs --- meanwhile I have been shooting some fantastic footage with the HVX200 that makes the debating seem trivial and pointless.
 
Couldn't agree more. Image is what counts for me as well, at the end of the day. I read Barry's review of the EX-1, and now my only issue is the rolling shutter, as the post workflow was SUDDENLY resolved (Lo and behold, Adobe released a patch to Premiere CS3 that natively supports the EX-1.)

Anybody know of a workaround to the rolling shutter? Is it going to hurt a gothic horror/atmosperically lit production? (vague question, sorry) Any idea what conditions would create this issue, other than strobe lights? Thanks.

Steve
 
I am one who sold my HVX for a EX.
I needed the low light ability and the EX delivers that much better than the HVX.
That said- I really miss that panasonic "look".
As it was said- Look at the footage and decide what looks good to your eye.

I can tweak the EX to come close to what I use to get with the HVX- but most stuff looks like real sharp video. The EX just doesn't "dream" the way the HVX does.
For me and my taste- sometimes sharp is too sharp.

I can't wait to test a HPX170
 
jstunzi said:
Okay Steve, to be honest your post was a little lengthy for me to read it but here's a general opinion.

In terms of lightloss the updated HVX200a is comparable to the EX1. HVX200 does not have HD-SDI out but it does shoot to P2 in a 4:2:2 codec. The EX1 has HD-SDI out and shoots to 4:1:1 on SxS cards.

However, go with the HPX-170... the new guy from Panasonic. It has P2, 4:2:2, 20 variable frame rates, HD-SDI out, and lots of other sweet features!
Click to expand...

HPX170, the HVX200 KILLER :D
 
The EX1 will far out perform the HPX170. For starters, the 170 is only using 1/3 inch chips compared to the EX1's 1/2 inch chips, and that will make a huge difference when you're looking at the sub-$10K price range cameras. The EX1 really excells for us when using Final Cut Pro. With FCP's program Color, we can get a fabulous film look. It doesn't have to be all about the camera...Post plays a big big part. Too bad your producer is so stuck on Premier!
 
Hate to break it to you frank, but 'far out performs' cos of half chips is something ive yet to see self evident, in the footage section of this site...
 
Im sorry to say but the most of these post are REAL bias towards the HVX in a BIG way!

Id like to just step in and say that after using the HVX for 3 years often its a great cam, but Ive just bought the EX1 and I couldnt be happier, the ONLY drawback is the rolling shutter which only pops its head under EXTREME conditions (Im even doing complex motion tracking with it).

This whole cine-gamma thing is rubbish, you have to know what your doing and carry the look through out the post workflow including correct grading, I admit for lazy people you get a nice cine-gamma out of the HVX stock. The EX1 has THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE cine-tweaking in its class by far - it really is super tweakable!

These new cameras announced are not out for a LONG time- HPX170 at the end of the year if you lucky, so I dont know why people act like you can pick it up TODAY and shoot.

And lastly the EX1 has superior resolution and defenition - just turn sharpening off and you wont have the video look - simple! So again if your lazy and dont know whats happening then you get a more filmier look out of the HVX - but really it will take a while for people to see EX1 projects that are shot PROPERLY! Actually I have found that you have to use sharpening on the HVX just to get any detail at all, which still looks somewhat filmy - probably cos its not real res but pixel-shifted.
 
Nicky said:
These new cameras announced are not out for a LONG time- HPX170 at the end of the year if you lucky, so I dont know why people act like you can pick it up TODAY and shoot.
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Wrong. The HVX200a will be out in a couple of weeks and will have exactly the same sensor and chipset as the HPX170. So just be a little pacient and you will see if it can hold up with the EX1.
 
I think Barry Green started us off really good with his comparison of the HVX200 to the HVX200a.

I think Panasonic's Jan Crittenden did a great job on Freshdv talking about the HPX170. I mean waveform, HD-SDI, 6 pin Firewire, better sensor than the HVX200, a flipping feature on the LCD, P2 functionality, and all in a $5400 price range! Sounds like an awesome deal to me!
 
Nicky said:
Im sorry to say but the most of these post are REAL bias towards the HVX in a BIG way!
Click to expand...

Well... this is the HVX forum.
I'm sure you'll see most of the posts in the EX forum have a real bias towards the EX.

FrankC said:
The EX1 will far out perform the HPX170.
Click to expand...

It kind of has to - it costs about 30% more, so personally I'd see it as a real failure or overpricing on Sony's part if it didn't.
 
karapetkov said:
If you can, wait for Scarlet. :)
Click to expand...

Now seriously - why wait 18 months to shoot?
You could prep, shoot, and edit a feature between now and the time Scarlet is released.
(nevermind actually getting one in your hands).

Trust me, I'm as excited as the next guy by the specs - but that's all they are right now.
There will always be something better next year... always.
But you can't let that stop you from shooting this year.
 
Hey Luis why did you're head shrink? Or did you just order the wrong size tux?

Anyways I think this all comes down to whats available when you need it, what fits your budget, what fits your workflow, and what fits your shooting situation. I definitely wouldnt plan on using the 170 or scarlet for a feature I was ready to shoot. Heck you could shoot a feature and write another one before the Scarlet comes out. Dont worry too much about the camera anyways. Focus on lighting, sound, and story and you'll have yourself a good little movie no matter what you shoot it on.
 
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