ifownlee41nite@mac.com said:
HPX500.
Hvx200 Not Optically Centered
- Thread starter shiny4
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HPX500.
Dennis Wood
DVXuser Sponsor
I've yet to test a camera (and we've tested a lot of them) that had perfectly lens-centric image capture. The little HV20 we have here for testing is the worst I've seen yet but just about every camera has this issue to some degree. The Rev2 Brevis was designed with this issue in mind.
cheezweezl
Veteran
the idea that this issue is acceptable is just absurd. it's not like panasonic is some utility company only required to meet a minimal standard. they are a competitive private company selling precision products. the mini35 and other adapters have been around a long while and widely used. panasonic knows this. they also know that the hvx is the most likely out of the panny product line to be used with an adapter like this. but more than anything, do you really think it's ok for them to leave an issue like this unattended? do they want known weaknesses left uncorrected? if they do, i'm sure canon or sony will make sure their new cams will be properly aligned and make it known to all.
it's not like we are talking about a few pixels off center. in some cases, it's a major shift. rediculous to think this is to be expected from a $5000 camera.
it's not like we are talking about a few pixels off center. in some cases, it's a major shift. rediculous to think this is to be expected from a $5000 camera.
.... which work exactly as advertised.
Sorry, but I think that you're wrong. I own several cams (A1s mostly), some are more optically centred than others. I only know this because I'm an adapter user. If I weren't, then they'd all function exactly the same. And that's the point-- the cameras WORK AS ADVERTISED.
You make the mistake of seeing the issue as a black and white- broken or not broken ... Manufacturing is all about tolerances. If every third camera which came off the production line was sent back for "fixing" because the optical centreing was off, then it would drive up QC costs immensely. Every part of the manufacturing process has tolerances- how tight your battery compartment is has tolerances, the self-noise that your CCD chips produce has tolerances... to think that every camera can roll off the line more or less identical is naive. The fact that they 'are' in daily usage pretty identical is an acheivement, but don't let that fool you. For whatever reason, the physical process which positions the CCD block (or lens array) isn't incredibly precise, in terms of planar shift perpendicular to the lens axis. Maybe the price to pay for very precise positioning along the axis.
The reality is that optical centering doesn't affect 99.9% of their users. Or at least it didn't when the camera was designed.
Maybe 1 in 1000 would care/notice when the cam was designed. Maybe 1 in 100 would now.
Of course you're right that it's becoming more of an issue than it used to be, and no doubt it'll be more taken into account in future cameras, and/or process refinements, but let's face it-- adapter usage is still really niche.
As it happens, the cam I currently use with my adapter is one of the least optically centred that I have... it just so happens that it's my A1 with a fried firewire port, so the other is usually used as a Deck. I don't see the optical mis-alignment as making any difference, just a slight bit further zoomed in than the other. But we're talking like Z66 instead of Z65.
Kris
cheezweezl
Veteran
not convinced. if it's about tolerances, then the tolerances are too loose. if all of the people who are defending this problem would get a clue and complain about it rather than accept it, maybe panny (and all manufacturer's for that matter) would take note and make improvements. we're not talking about a $200 handycam from walmart here. the hvx may be low end in the pro market but it is in the pro market and should be solid all over.
wgzn
Veteran
i think its kind of an issue of "how big a business problem is it for us?" the hxv wasnt designed to serve adapter users. to complain about this would be like getting mad at your web designer because he didnt buy your stock photos at print resolution - why would he? hes your web designer not your print designer.
im with cheezwe that it seems like there should be more technical control, but if doesnt effect 99% of their market - why throw money at it?
im just surprised that the adapter market hasnt responded with an adapter with a bit more adjustability to compensate???
im with cheezwe that it seems like there should be more technical control, but if doesnt effect 99% of their market - why throw money at it?
im just surprised that the adapter market hasnt responded with an adapter with a bit more adjustability to compensate???
cheezweezl, tell me about the problems that you're having as a result of your cam not being optically centred.
Seriously, tell me of the real-world issues resulting from this, and their impact on your movie/business.
Sounds to me like complaining that using a super fish-eye vignettes slightly more on one side than the other. Sure, it might. Slightly. But it's a super fish-eye. It's an extreme situation. At what point are you 'on your own', in terms of manufacturer support? I'd venture somewhere before the point of bolting a whole bunch of extra optics on the front of a fixed-lens camera.
Seriously, tell me of the real-world issues resulting from this, and their impact on your movie/business.
Sounds to me like complaining that using a super fish-eye vignettes slightly more on one side than the other. Sure, it might. Slightly. But it's a super fish-eye. It's an extreme situation. At what point are you 'on your own', in terms of manufacturer support? I'd venture somewhere before the point of bolting a whole bunch of extra optics on the front of a fixed-lens camera.
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cheezweezl
Veteran
well i am screwing a 72mm achromat to the front and cannot achieve edge to edge focus. i have achieved edge to edge focus on some hvx's with the same achromat. i guess some that i rented in the past were "good" one's, some not. unfortunately the one i bought is not. this is for using a redrock m2. however i have tested with a focus chart where the gg from the redrock would be and cannot get the edges sharp, thus ruling out the redrock as the sole culprit. same test on a different hvx = different results. if it was a consistant known issue, like say for instance the rolling shutter probem on a canon hv20, then i would know going into it. however, i have used an hvx that was spot on so i know that it is possible to have one without this problem. it's like you have to be lucky to get one of the "good" one's. that is crazy when we are talking about a $5000 camera. what if two guys went out and bought 2 brand new identical ford mustangs? then they go race and one is clearly much faster than the other? would the driver of the slower car say, "oh well it's a mustang and it's good for every day driving. i guess if i want to go fast i should have bought a porsche"? hell no. he would take it in and figure out why his mustang wasn't performing like his buddie's. then he would yell and scream until they fixed it. i'm that guy.
get it?
get it?
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cheezweezl
Veteran
....and if panny doesn't want to support using optics on top of the lens, maybe they shouldn't put threads there. quit making excuses for them.
as far as how it affects my business, i don't know where you are in the world but in l.a. everyone and their brother wants to shoot their project with the hvx/redrock combo. this is why i eventually bought it. before i bought it i was renting it every week for almost a year. it is possible to get this setup extremely sharp edge to edge. mine cannot. the rest is obvious.
as far as how it affects my business, i don't know where you are in the world but in l.a. everyone and their brother wants to shoot their project with the hvx/redrock combo. this is why i eventually bought it. before i bought it i was renting it every week for almost a year. it is possible to get this setup extremely sharp edge to edge. mine cannot. the rest is obvious.
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Unreaslistic expectations. ie; It ain't a Red camera.
Unreaslistic expectations. ie; It ain't a Red camera.
If you use your brand spanking new VW to race in SCCA or equivalent, any damage or failure will not be covered under warranty and if VW finds out that you are racing it, the warranty would likely be voided as well. That's not to mention what they would say about making performance mods...
It's a show room stock car, and it will perform very well for it's intended purpose- driving on the street. Same with the HVX. It works great out of the box, but when we start to add all of these optical components to it, we are modifying it- quite possibly beyond it's specified tolerances.
I'd have more sympathy for the topic of this thread if the camera in question was indeed a Varicam or a Red, but it's a 5K (awesome) prosumer camera. Our expectations have been distorted due to the amazing value delivered in this camera, not from it's failings.
Unreaslistic expectations. ie; It ain't a Red camera.
If you use your brand spanking new VW to race in SCCA or equivalent, any damage or failure will not be covered under warranty and if VW finds out that you are racing it, the warranty would likely be voided as well. That's not to mention what they would say about making performance mods...
It's a show room stock car, and it will perform very well for it's intended purpose- driving on the street. Same with the HVX. It works great out of the box, but when we start to add all of these optical components to it, we are modifying it- quite possibly beyond it's specified tolerances.
I'd have more sympathy for the topic of this thread if the camera in question was indeed a Varicam or a Red, but it's a 5K (awesome) prosumer camera. Our expectations have been distorted due to the amazing value delivered in this camera, not from it's failings.
alpi69
Veteran
Every topnotch Nikon lens is NOT perfectly aligned with any topnotch NIKON SLR. They all suffer from backfocus to a degree. They will never admit it, but they do. Same for all other manufacturers. It is not possible I guess to make every unit perfect.
Funny thing is: on their newest professional DSLR NIKON suddenly offer the feature of backfocus alingnment via screw like we are used to on our videocameras.
They HVX not being optically centered is not really a problem IMO.
Funny thing is: on their newest professional DSLR NIKON suddenly offer the feature of backfocus alingnment via screw like we are used to on our videocameras.
They HVX not being optically centered is not really a problem IMO.
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In the world of cameras, the HVX is a $200.00 handycam from Walmart.
So , since a Varicam and the HVX are both "Pro" cameras, should they have the same construction and manufacturing tolerances? If so, one of these cameras is horribly overpriced. Conversely, one of them maybe horribly underpriced as well ...
Key words- "...low end in the pro market".
cheezweezl
Veteran
so you are comparing basic alignment expectations on the hvx to race spec expectations on an off the lot vw? that's a little out there.
maybe if i was bitching about my hvx breaking after i dropped it while doing a backflip while shooting a snowboard video then you would have a decent analogy with the race thing.
but lets be real, the lens alignment issue is extremely inconsistent which indicates a problem on the assembly line. this could be compared to an alignment problem on a car.
my hvx pulls to the left. fix it.
cheezweezl
Veteran
yes the varicam is very expensive for what it is. IMO everything in film/video is overpriced. things are priced based on what the market will pay, not what it costs to build. a decent fluid head and sticks made for heavy cams will cost as much as the vw in some cases.
horribly underpriced? do you work for panasonic?
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No, Read the post again in particular the "performance mods" reference. It's about intended usage and design specs. You are slapping a 35mm adapter for the purpose of limiting DOF on a $5,000.00 1/3 inch chip camera. That camera has expansive DOF because of the chip size and it's manufacturing tolerances are according to that parameter and the price point of the camera. It was not designed for a 35mm adapter even though it by and large works well with one. You start narrowing the DOF down to that of a 35mm film camera , and you are going to see the limits of both the manufacturing tolerances and the $5,000.00 price point.
To take the car analogy a bit further:
In the early '70's Porsche manufactured a 914 and a 917. One had a 4 cylinder volkswagen engine and was priced so that a greater percentage of the populace could afford a "Porsche". The other was a 12 cylinder screamer assembled by hand, that tore the sport car racing world apart and Le Mans in particular for several years. They both carried a " professional" errr, em- I mean Porsche name badge. Is it reasonable to expect that they should perform or much less be priced the same?
Guess which one the HVX is equivalent to ?
No, I don't work for Panasonic. I'm gainfully self employed. Anyway, I couldn't handle hearing the bleating from customers with over inflated expectations of a 5K camera.
If the camera pulls to the left or right as you say, more than it should according to their standards then they should fix it.
Otherwise, save your angst and your money and buy a HPX, or Red. You'd then have case.
cheezweezl
Veteran
i'm not sure you understand how 35mm adapters work. the shallow DOF part is all in the adapter and in my case the adapter is doing a wonderful job. all i need the hvx to do is focus on a flat surface and hold that focus. if the lens is not aligned with the threads and the chips not aligned to the center of the misaligned lens then this is not possible.
i am familiar with the porsche lineup of that era. so the hdx900 or varicam would be your 911, the hpx500 would be your 944, and the hvx would be the 914. of course the 914 wouldn't handle as well as a 944 or 911 but you would expect it to drive straight under normal conditions, even if you added a bug bra to the front.
maybe we are talking about different things here. maybe you are thinking that the alignment is a tiny bit off and isn't a big deal. i'm here to tell you that it is way off and is a big deal.
you say buy an hpx or red and then i would have a case. would i really? i'm sure there are plenty of guys who spent lots of cash for varicams and f900's that would say "what do you expect from a $20,000 camera?"
i understand and deal with plenty of issues with the hvx without bitching. for instance, it is a light hog, the lcd sucks, the component cable connector is horrible. these are things that i accept and understand have to do with build cost. moving up to a 2/3" chip gets you better low light performance. moving up to a more expensive cam get's you pro bnc connectors and possibly a hi-res lcd.
however, something that is out of alignment that prevents good image quality when using a simple macro lens, an accessory that panasonic designs the camera to be compatible with, is not an issue i think i should just live with.
i'm glad you don't work for panny or any other manufacturer because your thinking is completely backwards on so many levels. i will take my hvx in for service and i expect good customer service. it seems they have corrected this issue for some people. maybe i will end up one of the lucky ones.
So what did Panasonic say about your camera? You've taken it to a repair facility, correct? Please check back in with their response when you've done so.
You are mis-characterizing my comments about Panasonic's responsibility in the matter, and selectivley left out pertinent facts to the discussion- until they served your argument ;ie the macro lens performance. For future reference, you may want to be a bit more forthcoming in your initial description of the issue. At the very least, it would grant more credibility and integrity to your case.
And, no my thinking is pretty damn straight forward on many levels, save your condescension for someone else. I also understand how an adapter works.
Looking forward to hearing about Panasonic's assessment.
cheezweezl
Veteran
:violin:
Exactly, it's high time to put your violin down and call Panasonic.
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