Hvx200 At Ibc - Latest News From The Show

24 as a variable framerate in 720p would be enough... and not too hard to implement.

Stop being an asshole about it, mmm and others. It's a valid request, there are projects (a lot of 'em) that are destined to a film-out in Europe too, and while 25p is "good enough" 24p is _the stuff_, the native format.

But don't worry about these NTSC (Never The Same Color, btw) bitches, we get a whole lot more vertical resolution in our DVCPRO50, don't we boys...

EDIT: People posted before I could.. so yeah, I was still talking about 24p in the PAL version :)
 
Policar said:
First post in a while....

My crystal ball has a message:

960X720 CCDs. I have no "source" but this is my best guess. I'm going to bet Panasonic's going for 1280X1080 stretched (as stated above) with pixel shift, and pixel shifting 960X720 gets you something around 1280X1080 with 4X2X2 color. Now, given that Panasonic's improved their noise-reduction on the DSP with the 100B and that 960X720 CCDs are not too dense, I think the camera will produce a pretty good image which will be just as clean as the dvx. Hopefully cleaner.
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Policar, I can also recall the 960x720 in their setup, although I cannot remember if it was a made timeline, or in the 'easy setup'. Looks like that might be it then?
 
I know the varicam shoots 960X720 (with 1280X720 ccds) so either 960X720 or 1280X720 CCDs would be my best guess. I assume the hvx will shoot 1280X1080 and 960X720.

Since the camera is being touted as a 720p camera above all else, I would be shocked if the resolution were over 1280X720. To be honest, I would much rather have 960X720 CCDs with good dynamic range than 1920X1080 CCDs with bad dynamic range.

The altisens (1920X1080 2/3'' CMOS) sensors in JVC's new camera seem to have both. I'd like to see a camcorder with a single altisens sensor since they're only about $700 each, but the issue would obviously be the cost of 2/3'' lenses at that point.
 
aquafox said:
24 as a variable framerate in 720p would be enough... and not too hard to implement.

Stop being an asshole about it, mmm and others. It's a valid request, there are projects (a lot of 'em) that are destined to a film-out in Europe too, and while 25p is "good enough" 24p is _the stuff_, the native format.
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Just buy a NTSC HVX and you get your magical 24.
 
jochem said:
Policar, I can also recall the 960x720 in their setup, although I cannot remember if it was a made timeline, or in the 'easy setup'. Looks like that might be it then?
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960x720 is the size of the recorded frame in DVCPRO-HD 720p mode. That doesn't mean the CCDs will be 960x720, it's just that that's what the recorded frame is.

Regarding the 1280x1080 question earlier, that's the size that DVCPRO-HD 1080i/p records.
 
Policar said:
Since the camera is being touted as a 720p camera above all else
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Where?

All I've seen is promoting 1080p. The camera's most unique selling points are 1080/24p, and variable-frame-rate 720p. No other camera can do that, so that's what they're promoting. Certainly that's what Jan emphasizes the most.

To be honest, I would much rather have 960X720 CCDs with good dynamic range than 1920X1080 CCDs with bad dynamic range.
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Me too, as long as the CCDs fully resolve the HD image (which I think may be possible with a pixel grid as low as 960x720).
 
aquafox said:
Stop being an asshole about it, mmm and others. It's a valid request, there are projects (a lot of 'em) that are destined to a film-out in Europe too, and while 25p is "good enough" 24p is _the stuff_, the native format.
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I acknowledged that fact if you read what I wrote, however the post that started it was being ridiculous!
Edelweiss said:
Jan,

I understand the time-to-market problem. Adding 27 additional modes to a camera is too much, ok, but please tell your inside contacts that they must seriously consider just adding 1 single mode to the PAL camera: 24fps@1080p. Adding just one single mode wouldn't delay the camera that much, right? Consider: For every PAL-user this is an absolute deal breaker! We won't buy the camera without 24p.

This feature is absolutely crucial. Add it. Please add it. Add it. Not 27 modes, just 1. Or your PAL sales will be 1/2. Thanks.
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If we are being assholes for taking the time to explain why 24p isn't an " absolute deal breaker! " for "every PAL-user" then I agree. The tone of our posts only echoed the tone of Edelweiss's. Also if someone can tell Jan how to incorporate 24p footage into a 1080i50 stream, please, go ahead!
 
Sorry to get away from the 24/25P debate but I've just returned from IBC and all I can say is that I'm glad I didn't go just to see the HVX! The Panasonic stand was extremely disappointing, especially with regard to the HVX. As already reported, there were only 2 working models there and they were very much out of reach. This was obviously disappointing because there was no information there that couldn't be discovered from the Panasonic site or from Barry and Jarred - except the absurd level of inaccurate information that most of the reps were churning out at the show. I'm afraid this is more and more typical of the staff at trade shows and not specific to Panasonic. However, I must say that it might have been a good idea not to include the non-working mock-ups on the other part of the stand. They were ridiculously flimsy and one even had letters from the Pana logo rubbed out... I heard more than one person commenting that the build quality was typically bad. They obviously hadn't even realised that the thing wasn't real. This is just not very clever marketing. IBC is full of people with some real spending power who may have been turned off by a simple mis-conception.

Bottom line: nothing new at the show, really, except a rather embarassing display of shoddy marketing practice. The camera isn't ready and the specification is not finalised. We knew that already. Oh, and the aesthetics aren't too hot - it looks an ugly pro-sumer unit to me. I'm sure DVCPRO-HD is a huge advantage over HDV in all the obvious ways and that this camera should produce impressive results but there's not really much to know about the HVX now until Panasonic confirm details and the thing hits the streets.

P.S. I don't include Jan in this criticism - she seemed to be there all the time fielding questions. In fact, she was working so hard that I couldn't get anywhere near! Should have stayed at home and emailed - that would have been more informative...

Rant over.
 
THE HDV CANON:

There was indeed a black Canon camcorder on their stand, surrounded by indifferent sales reps who just smiled when I commented that the camera looked suspiciously like a XL2 sprayed in matte black. I wouldn't expect that one out any time soon.

JVC HD100

The JVC stand had lots of units working and ready to play with - and there were lots of pleasant and informed people to talk to about it. I reckon it's an okay camera and very user-friendly. Also, I think that - for the price - it's crazy to complain about that lens. At least you do have other options. However, once you start to spec. it up properly you're in at a price point that is getting very close to a level where we will probably see some more serious HD ENG 2/3" kit with more robust codecs in the not-too-distant future. However, at least the thing IS available now.

My take: Until the HVX is available and proven, the Z1 is the best value for money for general use and the JVC is a good bet for low budget drama. Personally, though, I'd rather rent a DigiBeta rig for now.
 
Flotsam, I agree with your analasys.

Today's report is a little shorter, I had some personal stuff to check out today too..
I was over at JVC today, they had 6 fully functional HD100's available to play with set up with special sets, and anout 3 cdameras jsut floating around the booth. - Plus many more HD100's throughout the show!
The HD100's picture looks just decent.. out of the Component output that is.. I dind't see any HDV playback, so i won't coment on that.

Nothing new from Panny today.

I wasn't able to locate Varizoom, whom supposedly are working on a Focus/Iris controller for the DVX100B and HVX200.

Small clarification, the HVX200 will have the same Firewire TC-Jam feature that the DVX100B has.

The show is allready bgingin to wind down. I fly home tommorrow evening really late. So expect a full write-up Article from me sometime on wednesday, along with a collection of varios pictures from the show.

- Mikko
 
"My take: Until the HVX is available and proven, the Z1 is the best value for money for general use and the JVC is a good bet for low budget drama. Personally, though, I'd rather rent a DigiBeta rig for now."

I am one of those people here whose main use for the camera is to make low budget features (about 150K) and will probably never need the camera for trade shows, reality TV, etc. The two things on the JVC that I really like are the lens versatility and the shoulder mount look. BUT...I will wait a couple months as if the HVX can indeed do variable frame rates (I do a lot of action stuff) and can take an adaptor for longer lens work...I will wait and sacrafice the "look" to own the HVX (that and the battery lasts longer!).
 
SquidLips, I reckon you would be very wise indeed to wait for the HVX because it would be the most versatile low-cost HD camera. On paper, it has everything else licked.

Generally, though, I do think it's a little annoying that we've already had to wait this long for a camera that has yet to be proven. Perhaps mistakenly, I had the impression that IBC was going to be some kind of watershed. Also - unsurprisingly for a forum called DVXUser - there is a ridiculous amount of pro-Panasonic 'expert' talk on here that would have us be patient with Panasonic and the endless waiting, not speculate on specification but at the same time be duly excited and faithful to the brand. Yes, the Z1 is only interlaced and yes, the JVC is only progressive in HDV and has a limited stock lens but at least those cameras have actually appeared - without the hidden cost of over-priced P2 storage. It's unfair to rip into the competition without at least balancing this with a degree of criticism of the time between announcing a product and it actually appearing on the shelves. The projected launch for the PAL-compatible HVX version is scarily close to NAB 2006...

It's only revolutionary if and when it actually happens.
 
I don't see anything to back up your statements, but if you feel that way, this may not be the right forum for you. This site is not sponsored by Panasonic and we have *a lot* of debate and endless discussion of specs. We have a variety of camera/brand forums and all are welcome here, but we don't tolerate trolls.

Panasonic has always stated that the HVX would be delivered at the end of the year and it looks like they're hitting that target. P2 is not a "hidden" cost--it's always been clear that's it's an integral part of the camera. Equally clear has been the options of laptop capture and a Firestore device.

I find it really odd that some people consider the HVX to be like bigfoot or vaporware, when in reality, they haven't missed any of their announced dates so far. If you need a camera right now and the HDV format works for you--no one's arguing that you should'nt buy a Z1 or HD100.


Flotsam said:
Generally, though, I do think it's a little annoying that we've already had to wait this long for a camera that has yet to be proven. Perhaps mistakenly, I had the impression that IBC was going to be some kind of watershed. Also - unsurprisingly for a forum called DVXUser - there is a ridiculous amount of pro-Panasonic 'expert' talk on here that would have us be patient with Panasonic and the endless waiting, not speculate on specification but at the same time be duly excited and faithful to the brand. Yes, the Z1 is only interlaced and yes, the JVC is only progressive in HDV and has a limited stock lens but at least those cameras have actually appeared - without the hidden cost of over-priced P2 storage. It's unfair to rip into the competition without at least balancing this with a degree of criticism of the time between announcing a product and it actually appearing on the shelves. The projected launch for the PAL-compatible HVX version is scarily close to NAB 2006...

It's only revolutionary if and when it actually happens.
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go barry.

the great thing about being in a forum is that you can leave. looking at a few threads and making judgements is only frustrating for the guy who does it. panasonic has such a far better and superior communication line with us the customers than sony has even thought about. Jan is so accessible it is almost ridiculous. she always answers mail and questions here. try getting someone at sony or JVC to respond if you don't use the word Digibeta or HD. on top of that try finding someone there who has half her passion for the product and the people who use it. pany has responded to customer input far more than any company in the dv industry.
 
The hidden cost with the P2 cards is the possibility to loose more than half the value of the card just during the first year. 2 P2 cards costs almost the same as the camcorder and it seems to be too much for some users. Releasing the 16, 32 etc gig cards sooner than 1,5 year would result in serious prise fall.

My advice is : don't buy the P2, only the camcorder if you can't make money with P2 cards.

Polymer ram is the next big thing and if they come out than we are talking about 100Gigs for the same prise as the P2 card.
 
Flotsam said:
there is a ridiculous amount of pro-Panasonic 'expert' talk on here that would have us be patient with Panasonic and the endless waiting, not speculate on specification but at the same time be duly excited and faithful to the brand.
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I don't know that any 'experts' here have asked anybody to be 'faithful' to the brand. I know from my own posts I've said this, repeatedly: if you need a camera now, and can put it to work now, get a Z1 or HD100 now. If you don't need something now, why buy now, especially when something's coming down the line that looks to have all the answers?

Yes, the Z1 is only interlaced and yes, the JVC is only progressive in HDV and has a limited stock lens but at least those cameras have actually appeared - ... It's unfair to rip into the competition without at least balancing this with a degree of criticism of the time between announcing a product and it actually appearing on the shelves.
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Yes, they have appeared. And you know what? They took almost EXACTLY as long, from the time they were announced until the time they appeared on the shelves. The FX1 was shown as a non-working prototype at NAB 2004, and was delivered in October 2004. The HVX was shown as a non-working prototype at NAB 2005 and will be delivered in November 2005. Are you implying there's some substantial difference between those?

The JVC was announced in February 2005 and still hasn't been delivered to more than three US customers. It'll probably be October before the HD100 has volume sales. Almost exactly the same as the HVX's announcement-to-production pipeline.

I'm sorry, I just don't see the problem.

without the hidden cost of over-priced P2 storage.
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No, they just have the hidden cost of needing a $4,000 deck to digitize from, unless you happen to think that using a $6,000 to $10,000 camera as a playback deck is a good idea. Many of us don't.

It's only revolutionary if and when it actually happens.
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And, if it lives up to the hype. That's the only thing in this criticism that I find valid -- it's entirely possible that the HVX could disappoint. And what if it does? What did anyone really lose by waiting? If you have paying work, you should have bought one of the other cameras. If you don't have paying work, what are you doing buying a $6,000 to $15,000 camera system anyway?

It all comes down to this: better is better. It really is that simple. 1080/24p is better than 720/24p. 4:2:2 is better than 4:2:0. Progressive is better than interlaced. Better is, simply put, better. It just is. DVCPRO-HD is better than HDV. And so we say, if you've got the luxury of waiting to at least see the real product, why not do so? If it disappoints, all you've lost is a little time.

If you don't have the luxury, if you need to shoot now, then by all means get the current camera that suits your needs and start shooting.
 
stabwound said:
I saw this news item today:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0509/05091201samsung_chip.asp

I think P2 will be affordable and much cheaper, and hvx-200 is the way to go.
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I saw this too. What I'm wondering, and hopefully Jan could chime in, if a new type of memory comes along that can physically fit in a P2 housing, is it such a system that they could change the basic guts to adapt? Just put a new controller in with these new chips.
 
Edelweiss said:
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about: pitch-shifting adds artifacts: either it's some "stuttering" or flanging. I've never heard a really good pitch-shifter so far. Plus this still means that you have 4% slo-mo. And we've discussed+mostly agreed before that 26fps-for-24fps adds some "otherworldy-ness" to the footage. Well imagine having this through all of your movie - it will completely change the perception. With 24fps-converted-to-25fps (the "true-and-tested method"), you have the opposite effect that everything is a bit faster, which makes the viewer more attentive - can't really compare the two. Conversions from 25p to 24p are actually much less common, and they don't look right, unfortunately. That's why it's important that the pal-hvx has 24p among other framerates, like the arri.

Cheers!
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Come one now. There are people here who work with this stuff daily. I've been timestretching commercials and audio ever since the hardware (and now software) became available. 4% has been doable without any artifacts for more than 10 years.

25<>24 fps has been done for more than 80 years. Any half decent post house can do this. In fact most NLE's can do this flawlessly.

This isn't an issue, and nobody cares.
 
I agree. It shouldn't be difficult to add 24P on the Pal camera. What I don't understand is the NTSC guys defending the lack of 24P on Pal. It's not your problem, and you never had to face it. We do. Regularly. And it costs money. And it is a conversion. And you lose quality. Fact. Slowdown one frame, Panasonic. You still have 4 months and only need to add one more frame rate.

I don't see the NTSC guys complaining about not having 1080/25P. Why? Because you know very well it is useless compared to 24P.
 
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