HVX vs PMW-EX

Honestly, given the conditions you'll be shooting under, the amount of footage you'll likely generate, and the fact that you have to ship it off ...
...I can't help but wonder why you aren't considering a tape based camera.

Hey - I'm no fan of tape.
But sometimes, it is still (unfortunately) the most efficient answer.
 
Oh Perrone don't sulk! What that of those hvx users who do prefer their cams to the ex, that they should do so because they think their 'image' is better. For the record they may also be evaluating things like form, reliability etc.

It's stupid to say anything about 'defence' - zero defence indeed what poppycock.

We have opinions, and guess what? Just because they differ doesn't mean one is right and the other has... 'zero defence.'

"Not if the broadcaster won't pick up the footage."

Well, the day that happens with hd dvc pro, be sure to tell the BBC and Fox Television... If your point was something else with that quote, then forgive me for being so subjective on my perspective hehe.

SDI output - i keep hearing this, but lets face it, the vast MAJORITY of users of prosumer type cams that offer sdi output will never hook em' up for uncompressed footage.

Theres no point, thats what the cards... the codecs... are there for, to make life easier in uploading/ and editing it.
 
Alright - enough of the impending flame war.


The original poster is asking about two cameras as compared to each other for a very specific need.
Keep it on track.
And keep it civil.
 
I know, to be honest it is very probably that which forms a vital element in how organic it can look at least to my eyes anyway. I don't doubt though that the scene files also play a part (and dare i say it, but larger pixels)

Yep we'll behave Luis! ;)
 
lawriejaffa said:
SDI output - i keep hearing this, but lets face it, the vast MAJORITY of users of prosumer type cams that offer sdi output will never hook em' up for uncompressed footage.

Theres no point, thats what the cards... the codecs... are there for, to make life easier in uploading/ and editing it.
Click to expand...


Agreed, but the VAST majority of prosumers aren't submitting footage to Fox, Discovery, BBC, etc. If you are working at that level, then SDI becomes realistic.

And for the record, I am not sulking. I can just recognize a dead horse when I see one. So you win. The HVX looks better, has better ergonomics, is more filmic, is cheaper, and has "mojo". The EX1 is unreliable, a "toy", has unrelenting rolling shutter issues, and is a one-trick pony with only resolution on it's side.

C'est la vie!
 
Dino said:
Check out http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/colorspace/

4:2:2 doesn't only offer twice the color resolution, it is also more accurate than 4:1:1 or 4:2:0.
Click to expand...


The problem with that article, is that it assumes that you are comparing two samples with the same resolution. Since we all know and agree that the EX1 has quite a bit more resolution than the HVX, it's not quite the same.

So I'd still like to see how 4:2:2 on 960x540 compares to 4:2:0 on 1920x1080.
 
Oh Perrone give it a break already... relax... we get it okay, ive seen you all over hvx threads piping on and on about how you don't think the hvx is all that, and complaining over why people say its more filmic etc. Your res comparison is also quite misleading, i suggest you pm Barry for clarification ;)

Now the HVX records at 1080p or 720p, so does the EX, then after that both cameras have differences that lend some to pick one over the other. It that simple... and do you think now we've expressed opinions we can leave it at that? Without any unnecessary provocations ;)
 
lawriejaffa said:
Now the HVX records at 1080p or 720p, so does the EX, then after that both cameras have differences that lend some to pick one over the other. It that simple... and do you think now we've expressed opinions we can leave it at that? Without any unnecessary provocations ;)
Click to expand...


Yep, you're right. If we simply agree from the outset that the two cameras are equal in what they record, then it just comes down to which one looks best to us.

Done.
 
PerroneFord said:
The problem with that article, is that it assumes that you are comparing two samples with the same resolution. Since we all know and agree that the EX1 has quite a bit more resolution than the HVX, it's not quite the same.

So I'd still like to see how 4:2:2 on 960x540 compares to 4:2:0 on 1920x1080.
Click to expand...

Sure, here's the math:

XDCAM EX at HQ mode, 1920X1080 @ 4:2:0 is 960X540=518,400

DVCPRO HD at 1080 @ 4:2:2 is 1280X1080=691,200

Yes, the HVX200/200A/HPX170 imagers are pixel shifted, but there is still more color space than XDCAM EX HQ, yielding better chroma keying, more accurate color, more flexibility in color correction.

In the case of the EX1, the front end of the camera is literally only half of the story.
 
Would be nice if these threads could stay a little more on track, and people stayed a little more focused on helping OP, if they are going to bother to post. We all get the HVX(new) and EX offer a lot.
 
Dino said:
Sure, here's the math:

XDCAM EX at HQ mode, 1920X1080 @ 4:2:0 is 960X540=518,400

DVCPRO HD at 1080 @ 4:2:2 is 1280X1080=691,200

Yes, the HVX200/200A/HPX170 imagers are pixel shifted, but there is still more color space than XDCAM EX HQ, yielding better chroma keying, more accurate color, more flexibility in color correction.
Click to expand...


Thanks Dino! This really helps me get an idea for how close these too are. Clearly the HVX offers more color sampling, but it's not as big a gap as some might have people think.

Very cool.
 
PerroneFord,

I agree, this is pretty subtle, however there is little doubt the 4:2:2 color space will key better, layer better and color correct better. The EX1 out of the HD SDI spigot has a very clean, almost 3D look to it, really astounding for under $10K price point!
 
Nik,
We use the HVX200 is some quite extreme locations including small boats (RIB's etc).
To get back to your specific question, we have a couple of small hard drives (2.5") in shock mount cases housed in a small Pelican case. In the case we have a small 6v battery which we use to run the drives. Between shoots we just hook the camera upto one of the drives and down load it. This system has worked very well for us. We carry about 600GB of capacity like this. I think the whole set up cost a few hundred dollars.
We have a 170 on order which I think has a 6 pin Firewire which would make the set up even easier.


I have not had a play with the EX so it would not be appropriate for me to comment other than to say the DVCPRO HD in post is superb. I would not want to be doing the same stuff with a long GOP MPEG4.
 
Hi All

Many thanks for all your input.

After reading through your comments and looking all over the internet i have made the decission to enter the world of P2.
My main reason for this is my discovery of the HPX170 that i didnt know of till i saw a review of it here. Being lighter with a good wide angle is definately something that counts for me.
So, a few more questions:
1, can i get a polarised filter for it?
2, the Firestore Hard disk recorder, how big is it? can it be fittet on the 170 like Sony`s can on the EX models?
3, prices on P2 cards. Is it like everything else, that prices drops when the product has been on the market for a few years, or will we keep paying huge $ ?
4, when is the HPX170 out? when can we get it? where can we get it from? where do we buy the Firestore and all the other bits?
5, are there any review sites for video, like DPreview and Cameralabs for stills?

Again, thanks a lot for the help
Nik www.saltflyer.com
 
Saltflyer,

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes, the 64Gb P2 cards should bring down other P2 prices
4. End of September, FireStore FS-100's can be bought on eBay for $1100 range used for 100Gb, $1500 or less for 160Gb. Many dealers for the 250Gb, like B&H.
5. Barry Green has a two part HPX170 review on this site that is excellent.
 
I had a feeling the HPX would be something you wanted to see. Very capable camera.

Regarding the firestore, it is kinda big. I have one for my DVX100/EX1. There is a new model that is smaller, but I don't know if it works for the Panasonic HVX/HPX, so check that out.

P2 cards have been out for some time, but I am still quite surprised at how expensive they are.

-P

saltflyer said:
Hi All

Many thanks for all your input.

After reading through your comments and looking all over the internet i have made the decission to enter the world of P2.
My main reason for this is my discovery of the HPX170 that i didnt know of till i saw a review of it here. Being lighter with a good wide angle is definately something that counts for me.
So, a few more questions:
1, can i get a polarised filter for it?
2, the Firestore Hard disk recorder, how big is it? can it be fittet on the 170 like Sony`s can on the EX models?
3, prices on P2 cards. Is it like everything else, that prices drops when the product has been on the market for a few years, or will we keep paying huge $ ?
4, when is the HPX170 out? when can we get it? where can we get it from? where do we buy the Firestore and all the other bits?
5, are there any review sites for video, like DPreview and Cameralabs for stills?

Again, thanks a lot for the help
Nik www.saltflyer.com
Click to expand...
 
saltflyer said:
Hi All

Many thanks for all your input.

After reading through your comments and looking all over the internet i have made the decission to enter the world of P2.
My main reason for this is my discovery of the HPX170 that i didnt know of till i saw a review of it here. Being lighter with a good wide angle is definately something that counts for me.
So, a few more questions:
1, can i get a polarised filter for it?
2, the Firestore Hard disk recorder, how big is it? can it be fittet on the 170 like Sony`s can on the EX models?
3, prices on P2 cards. Is it like everything else, that prices drops when the product has been on the market for a few years, or will we keep paying huge $ ?
4, when is the HPX170 out? when can we get it? where can we get it from? where do we buy the Firestore and all the other bits?
5, are there any review sites for video, like DPreview and Cameralabs for stills?

Again, thanks a lot for the help
Nik www.saltflyer.com
Click to expand...

Nik:

1. Of course, the world of filters is your Oyster. 72mm of any brand of circular pola will do as will 4x4 with a matte box/sunshade. Your choice. I will tell you that trying to use a circular pola with the stock lens hood is close to impossible since you can't get your fingers into the hood easily to rotate the filter. Unfortunately, when you need to use a polarizer, you almost always need the shade of a hood too. Cheap way to go are Cokin filter system but I would spring for a Red Rock matte box and a very high quality pola like a Schneider or Formatt. Filter quality makes a difference and if you are on the ocean, get the good stuff as you will be dealing with tough working conditions.

2. On a boat, you are in adverse, cramped, hot, cold, wet and salty conditions. I would not trust a FireStore in these sorts of conditions. One little jerk of that FireWire cable while shooting and your entire clip could be gone. You are an ideal candidate for using P2 cards. Just how much footage per day do you need to shoot? If you can live shooting 720/24PN footage (I shoot this format almost exclusively except for plates and stock footage), you will have 42 minutes per 16GB card and your 170, if you are buying in the U.S. will include a 16GB card. I output 720/24PN to HDCAM SR and D5 for the studios all of the time using my Kona 3 for RT up res to 1080, looks awesome. FireStore=moving parts and fragile hard drive and connections. P2= battle tested, shock proof, rugged and reliable. If you have an assistant to offload as you shoot, you could get along with as few as 2-3 16GB cards to shoot all day. I do it by myself all of the time and have shot as many as 20 P2 cards in a day alone while off loading them all as I go. It can be done although could be a bit tricky on an open decked boat.

3. I have seen used 8GB P 2 cards for as little as $300.00 and used 16GB as low as $500.00 on occasion. Not too many used 32GB cards on the market...yet. There will eventually be. As long as you can test it, I would have no problem buying used P2 cards, they are pretty reliable.

4. HPX-170 is officially "out", some buyers received some last week. I would call AVS, Abel or Spec Comm and get on the lists. Unfortunately you are late to the party and may have to wait quite a while, depending on how many Jan has in the pipeline. Hopefully she knows that the HPX-170 will have monster demand and has a lot of them coming in from Japan.

5. Stills of the HPX? Why not just go to the Panasonic site? They have a the brochure on there that you can download.

I have one shipping next week according to Spec Comm. I have shot thousands of P2 cards in the HVX since it was out. I have also shot hundreds of cards with the EX-1, one of my clients has one that I use every week. I like the EX-1, it's a good camera but I like the HPX-170 better. IMHO, 1920x1080 vs. the lower res 960 x 540 with pixel shift is moot point except for measurebators. Lighting, composition and subject matter trump all of that techno-waddle. I can make killer images with either camera, I just prefer the Panasonic look and feel.

Welcome to the club.

Dan
 
saltflyer said:
4, when is the HPX170 out? when can we get it? where can we get it from? where do we buy the Firestore and all the other bits?
Click to expand...

Hi Nik,

Currently the HPX172 (pal version) hasn't quite arrived yet but i've been told the end of the month.

Currently if you buy the the HVX202A you get a free 16 gigger and panasonic have told me it will be the same for the HPX.

Im not 100% sure where you are based but if you are the Auckland area give A2Z Technology a call - www.a2ztech.co.nz Tell them Joe Lawry sent you, they will be able to help you out.

Joe
 
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