HVX vs PMW-EX

S

saltflyer

Member
Hi
Not sure if this is the right place to ask questions like these or if its an appropiate topic.
We are a small company specializing in Saltwater fly fishing in New Zealand. We have been asked to produce DVD`s for boat tests and fishing tackle
"on the water tests" we have been doing our previous filming with an older Betacam, but want to get into 1 of these little handy things.
We are looking at the EX1 and the HVX200.
Our main concern is how to get the data of the SxS or P2 cards while being on a boat. what is our best option?
We understand that Sony makes a 60gig hard disk recorder you can attach to the Cam, but cant find anything like it for the HVX?
Our other major concern is that we have to send our data to Australia to be edited. We have been advised to burn our data to Blu-rays and send them. This should be the safest and cheapest option, any comments?
Last but worst question: what is the best cam. for us to buy, considering we are operating in a saltwater environment?
what are the main differences?
We have been advised that sony`s 1/2 sensor should raise the quality over the HVX`s 1/3 sensor ?
which system (P2-SxS) is most future proof?

Many thanks for any advice

Nik
www.saltflyer.com
 
I'll avoid the "which is better" because there are dozens of threads comparing these two cameras already, and having the argument on a Panasonic supported webpage is folly.

But to answer a couple of your more pointed questions:

1. You don't mention what KIND of boat you'll be on (5m open console or 20m cabin cruiser) but the best two options are to either just use enough cards to NOT download or use a small laptop. A single 16 GB card on the Sony will give you nearly an hour of shooting 1080p. Unless you are doing a documentary, 2-3 of these should let you do all the action footage on the boat you need to produce the show. The P2 cards on the Panasonic work similarly and for similar cost, but you"ll need more of them.

2. The most popular hard drive recorder for the HVX seems to be the Firestore. Nice unit, but don't know that I'd want it in a salt-water environment unless it was cased.

3. A single Blu-Ray, single or double layer, should let you send the entire production on a single disk. Excellent option, and the same thing I am doing.

4. The Sony's larger sensor, as well as it's native 1920x1080 capture bring several advantages. It also performs better in lower light. Not sure if that's important to you or not.

5. As to which card technology is most future-proof, SxS/expresscard is being included on nearly all new laptops and the p2/pcmcia is being phased out. JVC has just announced it will standardize on the new SxS format also.

In short, the EX1 beats the HVX in every measure of performance you could name. The fans of the HVX say that the HVX maitains an advantage in that it looks the most like "film". That may well be true. I don't see it, but HVX owners do.

You might also do well to test the EX1's rolling shutter issue in your environment. That might cause a problem for you in your specific use. It's a well discussed problem so you should easily find all you need to know about it. That might rule the camera out for you. If it does, be sure to check out Panasonic's new camera, the HPX170. It has a number of major improvements over the HVX, but sadly has the same sensors.

Best of luck in your decision.
 
HVX V EX1 has certainly been covered I think extensively on DVXuser so I'm sure you can run a quick search and find many arguments for and against either camera.

My 2c worth though:

Handling:
Many DPs I have spoken to have criticized the EX1 for having poor balance and a toy like feel.

Media:
How often are different computer parts, card slots, and formats being fazed out. How long before a better slot than express cards comes along, P2 cards are water, dust and presser resistant the SxS cards are not. Not to mention the fact that they are a wonderful workflow and have many options for ingesting.

Chip:
The 1/2 inch chip in the EX1 appears to be in my opinion more of a marketing shtick to try and over come the foot hold the HVX has in the industry. I'm saying this not because a bigger chip is not better, but because the one big advantage of having a half inch chip is the ability to place 1/2 inch chip lenses in front of it. The EX1 has a fixed lens...

The fact that it has "native" 1920/1080 recording is not due to the size of the chip but the sampling there of. 1920/1080 pixels on the chip do not match up with the 1920/1080 pixels on delivery. The charge from the pixels is sampled encoded and recorded in a compressed format. This is basically what happens in all digital cameras the big determiner of picture quality is the sampling of the sensor, algorithms used to encode the data and the compression used to write it into a video format.

Avoiding more boring geeky details the EX1 uses poor quality compression to write its files. By doing this the frames created in the video format can't tolerate many adjustments in post production. After ingesting, color correcting and re-compressing the footage the HVX footage will stand out as better looking, more film like (if you are so inclined) and longer lasting through the post production process.

Longevity:
The EX1 is a brand new release where as the HVX is a 3 year old camera and still matches up to and suppressing the EX1 in my opinion. That said the newer version of the HVX called HVX200B. It is suppose to resolve the low light ability of the camera and all up improve the image quality. The HVX was the first of many P2 card based cameras rite up to the hi end 3700. Panasonic have invested a lot in the P2 systems and will continue to support and develop it. When looking at Sony's solid state formats the XDCAM DVD disk recording was great at its time but hardly used now 4 years later. EX1 is in the now for Sony who is to say they will still be developing and supporting the SxS based cameras in the future.

I sound like a Panasonic devotee but am really a strong believer in the rite tool for the
job regardless. In my opinion these advantages make the HVX the rite tool for the job certainly in a rough watery environment.

I shoot regularly for Apple we use 2 X HVX200 and record to P2 cards, all the footage is then converted to NTSC. Both PAL and NTCS versions are copied from the back up to a slim and inexpensive HDD which then gets sent via mail to LA in the US. The HDD is then sent back to us for the next job blue rays are a good solution as well make sure to pack them safely for the trip though.

I am based in Sydney and work for many companies with digital formats if you need any help or advise your welcome to PM me.
 
Salt,

I own an hvx and have two hpx 170's on order and am a proud new owner of 2 ex-1's & 2 z7's. I think ( Jan should chime in anytime now) the sony's will work better for you...
 
Watch the new season of Deadliest Catch on the Discovery Channel... That is all sony! It's not the look for everyone but take a look... It is the look for some people :)

The sony's are cheaper for me to run, 3 times the footage on a sxs, with the hvx I don't shoot 720 24p, it's 1080 at 1 gig a minute without time to download, that gets very expensive with the Panasonic cam's. Add up the $$$ to shoot an hvx in 1080 for 5 hours without offloading & do the same for the ex-1. All of a suden the ex-1 cost a heck of a lot less and looks better (in my opinion for a fishing show)...

PS what network does the hvx have a foot hold in?
 
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Hi Chip,

So what sort of metadata are you uploading into the camera prior to the shoots. I would think to have 100s of hours of clips without useful metadata would be a little tough. So certainly you are putting metadata that will help you sort the footage by content. I know you can do that with the HVX200/A/170.

We just posted a new instructional handout on the Metadata Workflow over on the Panasonic.com/p2hd site.

As far as the network, well Fox has a whole bunch of them and a good many of the stations around the world. I have 610 world broadcasters from late 2007 and of them one more than 200 are in the United States, but those are really full conversions to P2. But so far as I have seen the guys that bought the big P2 have also bought the little P2HD.

I have to say to anyone so torn, like our friend saltflyer, to ask a public forum about which is better, you bring up from your respondees which is better for them. Your best advice is that you go rent one for a weekend, make it a three day weekend and just take the time to get to know the camera and how it behaves, the types of things that you shoot.

Got a house to paint, so I have to go.

Best,

Jan
 
No meta data needed by the networks (heck, they work off Avid, which most networks do)...No time for sd cards when the make or break shot comes and goes in 5 seconds (can you guys increase the pre record time to 10 seconds?) - run and gun stuff... Over 22,000 clips (hundreds of hours on multiple hvx's) and no one cared about meta data (just time code), however for personal reasons I'd love to see the f stop and actually all the scene file data logged to meta data so when I see a great shot I can recall all my camera settings, wouldn't that be great! Finally a use for meta data (although no networks would care about that)...

Jan :) I have two 170's on order :))) I'll have 15+ camera's by the end of 2008, of course not one will be the best for everything.

I agree with your advice about renting a camera to try out!

& Jan I know your going to want me to start a thread about this but yes, Disco just licenesed 10 min of my footage that will air in October on a show called "Storm Chasers", Yep hvx footage :)
 
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No need to sort when each P2 card is downloded to a folder called reel 1 then 2 then 3 and so on...

Jan, you should make a post about Man vs. Wild being shot on a varicam and hvx...

My advice is based on outdoor action adventure stuff, if you'd like some experience shooting action adventure docs we can put you to work next spring with us :)
 
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Best advice I read yet, get both cameras out and see which suits you better.
ABC Australia, the biggest broadcasting corporation in the southern hemisphere, invested (and don't quote me on this I got the figures from an unconfirmed source) $4m in P2 systems.
 
"In short, the EX1 beats the HVX in every measure of performance you could name."

What a load of tosh Perrone... well there is an opposite point of view.

I can think of several where the EX is inferior in performance (subjective mind) that anyone comparing the cams might want to consider.

1) Rolling Shutter / image skew
2) Technical Reliabilty
3) Poor Sony Support
4) Less Organic colour imagery,
5) Less filmic cadence/motion (I call it that, to others its the reduction of detail when it goes walkies off the tripod)
(consider 4 and 5 the panny mojo.)
6) Long GoP compression...

Now that i could take off the top of my head in no time. The advantages of the EX are of course resolution resolution resolution hehe.

But the newsflash is, that the EX like the hvx is a prosumer cam with professional potential. But notice not every professional cam has rushed to be full raster yet either... I think the point here, is that without resolution being its main superficial selling point, the EX is inferior to a HPX170.

I've also - apart from the tripod choreography of bloom, yet to see ex footage that makes me go wow for reasons other than resolution.

Advantages I would list for the EX imo (and from brief playtesting!)

1) Higher Resolution
2) Improved Recording Times (albeit xdcam hdv)
3) Light sensitivity.
 
Coldpizza said:
Best advice I read yet, get both cameras out and see which suits you better.
ABC Australia, the biggest broadcasting corporation in the southern hemisphere, invested (and don't quote me on this I got the figures from an unconfirmed source) $4m in P2 systems.
Click to expand...

Thats correct.

But seriously the argument - you can record more on sxs, so its cheaper is a short sighted opinion. For me recording on P2, over one month of shooting and editing is about hmmm, considering additional render time on XDcam EX footage well not even equivalent in a cost to time ratio. Ive made this point before.

I love the footage from the EX. But if you really believe that shooting on the EX's SxS is cheaper, youre obviously not running a business.

Ill make a point. I loved my Canon A1, image wise it was great, personally if you take out the HVX frame rates, I preferred the A1. Too expensive in the long run due to rendering long gop. This is why I have gone to a p2 camera, with Iframe 4:2:2 recordng. Because the numbers are better.
 
Hes talking about shipping one offload, but talking about BUYING a camera for future use....

But on that.. forget Blueray, just send a HDD, saves burn time.
 
After my short hands on experience with the RED ONE, I can conclude that the RED ONE footage is almost 98% the same as the Sony EX1.
 
Is it a load? Notice I said measurable performance, not SUBJECTIVE interpretation.

Now, lets look at your points.

1. Rolling Shutter. Yes, which is why I mentioned it specifically, and said that might be a show-stopper for this user.

2. I have not heard of technical reliability issues with the EX1. With darn few moving parts (even less than the HVX) what is it that you are finding unreliable in your research? And could you point us to your findings?

3. I've had very good support from Sony, as have others. I have heard of 2-3 issues over the past 10 months but the great proportion has been positive. Did you have some specific instances in mind?

4. How do you measure the "organicness" if the imagery? What are the parameters? Or is this simply your subjective opinion?

5. Maybe you're right. But I consider it a wash. Better resolution versus better handheld motion detail. Given that this is a boat review show, I don't know how much the cameraman is going to want to handhold on a moving boat. I've spent a bit of time on boats and I sure wouldn't want to hold $10k in camera gear in my hands trying to shoot a show.

6. So don't shoot the EX1 with long GOP.


I dearly didn't want to get into this type of which is better discussion for these very reasons. Both cameras have their merits. The main arguments against the EX1 are the rolling shutter and the long GOP recording. The first problem might show up in your shooting, or it might not. The second problem is solveable with a built in solution.

The HVX may be more filmic, but while that is a subjective opinion, the original poster isn't shooting or simulating film. He's shooting a TV show. So let's stay on point for the job at hand.




lawriejaffa said:
"In short, the EX1 beats the HVX in every measure of performance you could name."

What a load of tosh Perrone... well there is an opposite point of view.

I can think of several where the EX is inferior in performance (subjective mind) that anyone comparing the cams might want to consider.

1) Rolling Shutter / image skew
2) Technical Reliabilty
3) Poor Sony Support
4) Less Organic colour imagery,
5) Less filmic cadence/motion (I call it that, to others its the reduction of detail when it goes walkies off the tripod)
(consider 4 and 5 the panny mojo.)
6) Long GoP compression...

Now that i could take off the top of my head in no time. The advantages of the EX are of course resolution resolution resolution hehe.

But the newsflash is, that the EX like the hvx is a prosumer cam with professional potential. But notice not every professional cam has rushed to be full raster yet either... I think the point here, is that without resolution being its main superficial selling point, the EX is inferior to a HPX170.

I've also - apart from the tripod choreography of bloom, yet to see ex footage that makes me go wow for reasons other than resolution.

Advantages I would list for the EX imo (and from brief playtesting!)

1) Higher Resolution
2) Improved Recording Times (albeit xdcam hdv)
3) Light sensitivity.
Click to expand...
 
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Perrone darling ;)

Joking aside its important you mention subjective, because thats the only opinion that matters. What looks better - and to every person his own.

I don't think theres any value in us discussing our pov, i think for the posters question, its enough for us just to express them. Especially since so many topics get into the nuts and bolts of the discussion anyway.

So I respect your opinion Perrone even though i disagree with the part I quoted but i hope you can see the lack of purpose of us just debating the cams point for point (page after page) and that we can just agree to disagree! ;)
 
I've recently been able to look at the HVX200A, EX1, HPX500 side by side with my HDX900. The EX1 has fantastic resolution, extremely low noise, good LCD display(although it is not viewable parallel to the camera body). However, it is an ergonomic mess, it was 1.5 stops slower than an HDX900 at 1080/24p--although it's clean enough to go into +3db and still have very low noise. The 200A lens had no visible chromatic aberration, the EX1 was good, but not perfect. I have an HPX170 on order and like the small form factor and many improvements over the HVX200A.

If it wasn't for the fact that I need a B-camera for my HDX900 and love the workflow of DVCPRO HD 720/24P Native, the EX1 would make lots of sense, but ultimately, Long GoP and 4:2:0 do not make sense for me. The DVCPRO 720/24P Native format yields 43 minutes on one 16Gb P2 card, that is not too far off of the 50 minutes of record time of SxS, albeit at 1080 for the latter.

It's also worth keeping in mind that the 64Gb P2 cards are do in November which should raise the convenience and lower the per minute cost of P2 cards.
 
Dino said:
the EX1 would make lots of sense, but ultimately, Long GoP and 4:2:0 do not make sense for me.
Click to expand...

So why not use the built-in SDI port?

Question. As I have not seen anyone actually address this.

A constant knock against the EX1 has been it's 4:2:0 color sampling versus the 4:2:2 sampling on the HVX.

Could someone please break down the actual color samples coming off the chips of these two cameras?

What does 4:2:0 sampling of 1920x1080 equal, and what does 4:2:2 sampling of 960x540 equal?

Thanks.
 
lawriejaffa said:
Joking aside its important you mention subjective, because thats the only opinion that matters.
Click to expand...

Not if the broadcaster won't pick up the footage.

lawriejaffa said:
I don't think theres any value in us discussing our pov, i think for the posters question, its enough for us just to express them.

So I respect your opinion Perrone even though i disagree with the part I quoted but i hope you can see the lack of purpose of us just debating the cams point for point (page after page) and that we can just agree to disagree! ;)
Click to expand...

I can most certainly agree to disagree. I think the only thing that gigs me about these "discussions" is that they always come back to same points. And in the end, the HVX faithful say, "mine looks better", to which there is zero defense. So once the discussion devolves there, it's over.

Since this discussion has devolved there, it's over. :)
 
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