HVX Tape Transport Hours Meter Question??

P

purplebandalero

Well-known member
I could use some info and/or advice regarding the HVX200 and tape transport hours meter. Our company purchased an HVX200 about 9 months ago for a project. We already had 2 of them and this camera was used on a shoot for a client who required tape instead of P2. We shot with 3 camera, a total of 26 hours of tape. So between the three cameras, this specific camera probably shot a total of 5 to 10 hours. That's the ONLY time the tape transport was used.

The camera was used on a few other projects over the past 5 months, but only for P2 usage. As I said, we've only shot one project with tape. The camera was also used for a 6 day time lapse project.

Recently we decided to sell this camera since it was being used very little. I informed the buyer that the camera had less than 20 hours of use on the video heads and it had only been used on a couple of other projects. Those were the facts as I knew them to be.

The buyer called me a few days after purchase and told me that the tape hours meter had 260 hours on the meter. I was shocked and have been wracking my brain the past few days trying to figure out how that's even possible. My own personal HVX has been used 4 to 5 times more than that camera and after looking at the meter on my camera, mine says it has 22 hours of time on the tape transport hours meter and 136 hours of total time on it. I use my camera on the majority of our shoots.

I did notice that when I took the camera out of the case to get it ready for sale that there had been a tape left in the camera, from a freelance shooter that had been working with on the project we shot with tape.

My question, is it possible that even though we only shot tape on one project...could the fact that a tape was left in the camera affect the tape hours meter, even though we were shooting P2 for everything else?? The only possible scenario I can come up with is that the 6 days that it was being used for time lapse, it was logging tape hours on the meter because of the tape in the transport. (Yes, I know there shouldn't have been a tape left in the camera, but it's not my camera...it belongs to the company I work for).

I did ask the buyer to upgrade the camera to the latest rev. He then told me that the camera was showing 260 total hours and 226 hours of tape useage. Again, there's no possible way unless it's logging hours because a tape was left in it. We dont' shoot tape...we're P2 exclusively, except for that one project.

Any thoughts?? Suggestions?? I'm really trying to figure this out and resolve this issue with the buyer. The camera is in pristine condition, not a scratch on it and it was represented to the buyer as I knew the facts to be. I'm trying to figure out what could possibly make the tape transport hours reflect so many hours.

Thank your in advance,

Michael Owens
Executive Producer - DP
Banned Breed Productions, Inc.
 
Last edited:
Check to see if you have any aspiring filmmakers working there who may have "borrowed" the camera on nights/weekends.

Anyway, 260 hours is no big deal!

After a year and a half of occasional use, my HVX has 610 hours on it, (tape mostly) and is working fine. My PD150 before that had a more than 1500 hours on it before the drum went bad.
 
Michael, If as you said a tape was in the deck, then I would guess it is possible that the camera would log hours on it. Even if the P2 mode was selected, the HVX "MIGHT" log head hours when on and tape is loaded.

When I had a tech service our camera he noted that our BetaCam has a lot of hours on it, but very few head hours. I explained that I NEVER have the camera on ready, ( heads running), until we are ready to record. Probably a 6-1 ratio or more.

The HVX doesn't have a "standby" mode where you can have a tape loaded but the heads not burning time, that I know of. Never have a tape loaded unless you will be recording to it.
I'll be interested in others comments.
 
I have the same issue, never really figured it out. I mix tape and tapeless. I never figure out if it was a Firestore thing or what but my tape meter, on both my HVX's, is not close to correct.




ash =o)
 
I really appreciate the input. Like I said, I've been wracking my brain trying to figure this out. The buyer thinks (which is understandable) that he was mislead on the use of the camera. I have the tapes sitting on a shelf in my office so I know how much it was used with tape.

As I stated, the camera was used on a 6 day time-lapse project for a local television station. We set up the camera to do a time lapse on a building across the street from our office. If a tape was left in the camera, that would account for at least 144 hours of useage. Still, that's so little hours on that camera and the buyer is complaining about it. I'm almost to the point of just telling the guy to stop complaining and go shoot something. It's become a huge waste of time for us. I'd like to resolve it.

I try my best to do the right thing, but the bottom line is the camera is about as close to brand new as you can get...not a scratch or defect on it. He got the camera, 2 8 gig cards a Storm case and Zacuto liner for it for $4,350.00. If I could explain the high tape hours meter reading, I'd love to have a way to do so...but I honestly can't think of how it could have happened. I'm tempted to do an experiment with my HVX and put a tape in while I shoot P2 to see if it changes my meter readings. May have to do that tomorrow to see what I come up with.

Again, thank you for the information.

Michael
 
PS...

I guess what's really bugging me about all of this is the guy is shooting P2...not tape. He even told me he's got a Firestore on order, so why does he even care about the tape transport hours. I sold him two 8 gig cards with the camera. I'm tempted to throw in another 8 gig card just to make him happy.

Not to mention, all the years that I shot Betacam...260 hours would have been just breaking that baby in. It's pretty negligible overall. I'm taking into consideratoin that this guy is a young, aspiring filmmaker and that his knowledge of camera systems is probably limited to consumer/pro-sumer cameras. But in the grand scheme of things, it's not an issue.

I believe in Karma...so I'm trying to do the right thing here. Still wish I could figure out the issue so I'd be able to come up with a logical explanation.

Thanks,

Michael
 
I havent spent much time figuring it out. One thing I thought it might be, was that that when you hit record, then pause, the tape meter keeps running until you turn the camera off. I noticed when my newer camera was used the first time with tape that the meter read 5 hours at the end of the day, even though I had shot less than 2 60 min tapes.




ash =o)
 
Did your purchaser look at the cam before buying?

Did represent the number of hours on the cam and tape drums as something else than what they were?

Did the guy buy the camera indicating it would be used mostly/exclusively for HD?

In contract law, if he didn't intend to use tape, it might not be a material breach.

However, I thought that the hours on the tape drums/cyclinders was hours of use. If the cam was set to p2, how can cam even sense the tape, much less record hours on the drum?
 
I just started my tape hours experiment about 10 minutes ago. As of 12:10 Central Time, my HVX200 has 25 Hours on the "hours meter" and 137 hours on the "operation meter".

I've set up a time lapse with the DC power supply, two P2 cards and a tape in the tape mechanism. I'm going to let the camera run all day and see what my findings are when it's all said and done. We'll see if a tape left in while shooting P2 will affect the tape head hours.

Hopefully this will shed some light on this mystery.

Thanks,

Michael Owens
Executive Producer - DP
Banned Breed Productions, Inc.
download.jpg
 
David,

In answer to your question...Yes, he did come and look at the camera before he purchased it.

I had originally told him that the camera had less than 20 hours on the tape mechanism. I was pretty sure of this number, because we had only use the camera once for a project with tape. As far as I knew, the camera should have only very little tape head useage because we only used it on that one shoot. For everything else, we used P2. Actually, the camera has had very little use overall because we bought it for a specific project ,which later was cancelled. So the camera was pulled out and used on a time-lapse project as to not tie up one of the other production cameras.

I was not even aware of the tape hours indicator on the camera as I'd never had a reason to look at it before and as far as I knew, the tape transport had very very little usage. We have multiple cameras here, the company has HVX's and some of us have our own personal HVX's. Many cameras have been used for personal and company projects...so when I posted the ad to sell the camera, I included as much information as I knew about this specific camera.

When I shoot, I always use my own HVX because I have a lot of accesories on it. So for the most part, the majority of the in-house shooting has been on my camera. Now, I know that I've used my camera on many many more projects than the camera in question has been used. Still, my camera has only 25 hours of tape usage and 137 hours of overall usage. The 25 hours of tape usage on my camera doesn't even make sense since it's only shot tape on the same project the other camera was used on, and I am pretty sure I only shot 7 60 minute tapes on that shoot. It's been P2 for everything else I shoot.

Anyway, the camera is running...we'll see what happens when it's finished.

Michael Owens
Executive Producer - DP
Banned Breed Productions, Inc.
 
I noticed this about a year ago with my HVX. If the switch is on TAPE the hour meter is counting when the camera is turned on, even when no tape is in it and it is not recording. I have used 5 tapes at 63min each and my hour meter says 66 hours...
 
Bingo Chip, that seems to be true in my case too. Not a practical flaw but it certainly can effect resale. Should be an easy fix in firmware right? We need to let Panny know. Can others confirm this is the case with their camera?




ash =o)
 
Results of Tape Hour Meter Test

Results of Tape Hour Meter Test

Ok...as of 12:10 yesterday (Feb 4, 2008) until today at 10:20, here are the results of the tape head transport hours test I performed.

12:10, Feb 4, 2008:
Hour Meter: 00025H
Operation: 00137H

download.jpg



Camera was put into P2 mode with a tape in the tape transport and set on time-lapse (60 second interval). Camera was plugged in via DC power adapter. I let the camera run until 7:30 last night and I checked it before I left the office for the evening.

@ 7:30:
Hour Meter:00027H
Operation:00142H


So, it was logging a couple of hours on the tape transport head, even though it was in P2 mode...but that still didn't jive with the 7.5 (rounded) hour difference between 12:10 and 7:30. In fact, the Operation Meter only showed a 5 hour difference for the 7.5 operation difference. Doesn't make sense...

So on to Plan B. I put the camera in tape mode and left it running all night just to see what the meter would show the next morning.

As of 10:30 this morning:

Hours Meter:0032H
Operation:00157H

IMG00048.jpg


So, in tape mode "standby" a change of 5 hours on the hour meter over a roughly 15 hour period of the camera just sitting and running. And a change of 20 hours total over a roughly 22 hour period on the Operation Meter.

Which leads me to conclude there's an issue somewhere. I'm not sure if it's working in my favor or against me here.

Bottom line, I got an email last night from the buyer. He's demanding an $800.00 rebate for the purchase of the camera. Keep in mind, his complaint has never been the condition or quality of the camera. He's never said he's not happy with it, it's broken...it's scratched, ANYTHING wrong with it. His complaint now is that I sold him a camera with only a month left on the warranty.

When he purchased the camera, we stated that it was bought last March and that it's been sitting in its case for the past 90 days as we've not had a need for it. Now he's claiming that we told him it was purchased 90 days ago. He called up the company we bought it from, obtained a copy of the receipt and now is saying that was sold him a camera that only has 1 month left on the warranty. We never said it was bought 90 days ago and my business partner looked him straight in the eye when he came to purchase it and she told him it was bought last March. Now he's saying he was mislead and we somehow overcharged him for the purchase.

We lowered our original selling price by $600.00 to accomodate his budget, even lowered the price of the Storm Case and Zacuto liner by $100.00 because I'm a nice guy. And now he's become such a pain in the ass...it's unreal.

Anyway...sorry for my ranting. When it comes to questions of my integrity, I get a bit riled up.

He bought the camera, 2 8 Gig Cards, Storm Case and Zacuto liner...paid $4,350.00. Did I overcharge him?? Price was never the issue until the whole "tape hours" question came up. And I'm sticking to my guns on that one. I know how much tape was shot with that camera. I have them sitting right here in front of me. And like I said, now his complaint is that it's only got a month left on the factory warranty. We didn't sell it to him with any "warranty expectations". It is what it is...a slightly used HVX200 in excellent condition. That's what he bought.

Thoughts??

Thanks,

Michael
 
that is not a over charge at all. If you want to give a refund I'm sure are many people that would pay that amount (myself included)
 
You gave him a great deal, he is being anal. Tell him the hour meter has a known issue. He is lucky there is a month left on warranty, that is rare with used gear.




ash =o
 
Ok...so it's not just me that thinks this guy is being an anal retentive ass then?

Things just took an interesting turn on this whole situation. Seems he want to the company that sold us the camera, requesting a copy of the original sales receipt. My business partner was livid, as there is a huge listing of gear we have purchased from them on that receipt. In essence, it would be a great shopping list for any person wanting to rob us and know exactly what we have in our offices.

So, my business partner sent the company and email, asking why they provided him that information...

Here's their response:
I checked with my accountant, who is the only other person besides
myself in the company who could have provided an invoice, and she told
me that she did indeed print the invoice for the person who requested
it.

He came in yesterday and told her that he works for Banned Breed. He
told her that a copy of the invoice had been requested by email last
week, which she knew to be true, and that he was sent to pick up a copy.
He knew the date of the purchase and the serial number of the camera. On
the surface, she had no reason to suspect that he should have been
denied the information. He also asked for a copy of the signed credit
card receipt, but that receipt was not given to him.

That being said, it does not excuse the fact that we did provide your
company information to someone who had no business receiving it. I
apologize that this happened.



So now we find out he's gone to the company, represented himself as an employee of ours to get a copy of our receipts. He even asked for a copy of the signed credit card receipts.

I think this situation is about to get ugly...He has NO IDEA who he's dealing with when it comes to my business partner. Now she's pissed.

Hey, on another note...I do appreciate the input from everyone on this situation regarding the Tape Hour Meter. I've been "lurking" on this board since last March and I've found it to be such a wealth of valuable information. Your willingness to share your information and insights is invaluable.

Thank you,

Michael Owens
Executive Producer - DP
Banned Breed Productions, Inc.
 
Hhmm. It would seem my DVX100B does something similar. Purchased brand new, zero hours on the head, and after my last project, it shows 8 hours, even though only less than 2 60min tapes were used (actually, it was more like 1 tape). Has anyone contacted panasonic about this?

It definitely would affect resale. I'd be pretty miffed too. That's not cool if Panasonic is artificially devaluing used cameras just to sell more brand new ones. Maybe this is my excuse to ditch my DVX soon and splurge on an HVX before I devalue it more by running up more hours. Yes?
icon7.gif
 
Time to call the police and file a report in my view.

What the person did is possibly a crime. At least call a detective and make an inquiry.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top