HVX SD Pictures

NBCshooter said:
Well, as a side note . . .

Barry's tests are now making me rethink SD acquisition . . . if I'm only producing for SD DVD, maybe I should reconsider the 2/3" DSR450 SD camera again (yeah, yeah, I know, it's only 25Mbps, 4:1:1 DV). The PDW-F330 1/2" XDCAM HD is nice for only $20K with glass, but the DSR is 2/3" and only $14,999 with glass, bricks, charger, and a bag. The great thing about that is that I keep my regular ole' DV workflow.
Click to expand...

nbc,
read what i wrote to answer another question about sd in the hvx here:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showpost.php?p=412007&postcount=5

i've been saying for a long time now that if you don't need hd, especially if you're
going to dvd that dvcpro50 can't be beat. the picture and workflow ease are just sick.
 
Yup - the shooting 1080P and down-rezzing to 480P without any re-compression should definitely produce a better result that shooting DVCPRO-50 native. Down-rezzing from 720P should not produce much significant benefit though.

The 1080P down-rez should be very nearly 720x480 4:4:4 as opposed to the DVCPRO-50 4:2:2. If there's a discrepancy in terms of sharpness, the solution is to apply a sharpening filter to the down-converted footage, as bi-cubic interpolation is NOT a mathematically perfect procedure as it acts like a bit of a low-pass filter.

-Spiff
 
Lenilenapi said:
I assume you did the downrez on a computer.
Click to expand...
Yes, using a PhotoShop knockoff because Photoshop has decided to stop working.

Is there a workflo where you could shoot HD and eventually convert to SD either before or after editing and keep some of that quality.
Click to expand...
Well, yes, depends on how you intend to deliver the footage. If you can edit uncompressed you could keep the downrezzed version's quality, but when you go to deliver it you'll take another hit depending on how good your delivery format is. If it's DVD or DV, you're going to throw away half the color resolution.

The only thing we really learned here is that you don't want to downrez to DV as an intermediate; that's just one step too many!

Is that available in FCP?
(I know you're not a Mac guy)
Click to expand...
FCP 4.5 and earlier had a relatively poor downrezzing algorithm; apparently it is *much* improved in FCP5.
 
NBCshooter said:
if I'm only producing for SD DVD, maybe I should reconsider the 2/3" DSR450 SD camera again (yeah, yeah, I know, it's only 25Mbps, 4:1:1 DV).
Click to expand...
Don't do it... ;) Look at the DV50 pic against the DV pic. That's the difference between 4:2:2 and 4:1:1. The DSR450 is 4:1:1. You won't ever get 4:2:2 quality out of it. If you really, really want to go SD 2/3", get an SPX800. That way you'll get 2/3" but you'll also get 4:2:2. Or wait for the Red, where you'll get all that and high-def too.
The great thing about that is that I keep my regular ole' DV workflow.
Click to expand...
Yes, but you give up the 4:2:2 which is making the DV50 shine. Tread carefully, grasshopper -- nothing you saw up there had anything to do with 2/3", that was all just 4:2:2... :laugh:
 
Barry_Green said:
FCP 4.5 and earlier had a relatively poor downrezzing algorithm; apparently it is *much* improved in FCP5.
Click to expand...

Absolutely true.

I could not use FCP 4.5 for good downrezzing, it looked bad.

FCP 5 scaling algorithm is great ! sharp, but smooth and natural.

I made some tests:

720p to 480p DVCPro50, then to DVD = looks great.
1080 to 480p DVCPro50, then to DVD = looks great too.

Like Barry said, AVOID DV 25 ( 4:1:1 ) !!!! There a huge loss.
But if you go directly from 720p ( or 1080 i ) to DVD, or from 720p ( or 1080i) to DVCPro50 480p to DVD. They'll both look good.
 
Barry_Green said:
There is no noise concern. It's no noisier than a Canon XLH1 or a DVX100B. What more do you want me to do? I've shown exactly what noise the camera produces, I've shown you full-resolution clips that show absolutely positively what the noise is. I showed you a gray scale so you can see what noise occurs at what brightness levels from shadow to highlight. What more do you want? Did you see an objectionable amount of noise in the gray card shot? If so, this isn't the camera for you. If you didn't see too much noise in there, then forget worrying about noise, because that's the noise level the HVX has.
Click to expand...

I donno, it NBCShooter or something that keep complaining about noise, croma noise or something. I personally think I will be very happy compare to my cheapo 1 CCD Sony Digital8 camera. And if you say it compare to XL H1 noise that I am even more happy, since it was the other camera in my viewfinder. Thanks for all this
 
mochouinard said:
I donno, it NBCShooter or something that keep complaining about noise, croma noise or something. I personally think I will be very happy compare to my cheapo 1 CCD Sony Digital8 camera. And if you say it compare to XL H1 noise that I am even more happy, since it was the other camera in my viewfinder. Thanks for all this
Click to expand...
It's, "chroma noise," or "color" noise, mochouinard. As opposed to, "luma noise," or monochromatic noise. Try this . . . take a light and put a deep blue gel on it and shine it on a white wall. Photograph it with your video camera. Ingest the footage and lay it down to a MPEG-2 DVD or VHS tape. Play back the DVD or VHS tape on a normal CRT television. See the dancing grainy stuff all over the the area which is bathed in blue light? That's chroma noise.
 
Barry, WOW, a picture is worth 1,000 words! Your photos say several thousand words...

One good look at the monster's red eyes and the problems with 4:1:1 become very clear.

To me it seems that IF the HVX-200 only supported DV and DVCPRO50, it would be one heck of a great camera. Everything else beyond that only makes it that much nicer.


Bob Diaz
 
Thanks Barry, as usual. I was waiting to see some of this for an upcoming projecta and I am truly a happy man.

PS-I want a tshirt that just says, BARRY GREEN in big letters. Nobody else has to understand it, but I'd feel just a bit smarter and more confident when I wore it. :)
 
Only if I get a shirt that says "Bob Diaz" on it. Bob's my new favorite poster -- he's like The Professor on Gilligan's island; that cat knows everything! :)
 
Could someone explain the down conversion process in fcp 5.
Are you starting a new sequence setting and rescaling or is there a media manager setting to do the conversion. Just curious on the exact workflow.

btw. from the beginning my intentions with the HVX was to shoot dv50. I've worked with the sdx900 many times and it is beautiful if you get your settings dialed in to your taste.

My goal is to shoot docs and commercials with this camera and I shouldn't need HD for those, but if something comes up for an hd channel. Great I have the opportunity but will probably rent a varicam or f900.
 
Barry_Green said:
If you bring in the HD footage and just downrez it, it can look beautiful -- but what can you do with it? Eventually it'll have to be compressed to something (whether DV, or WMV9, or something like that). Compressing to DV throws away the "goodness" that it had. DV50 seems to preserve just about all of it, as far as standard-def goes: you get all the goodness, all the sharpness, and you can use it -- you can dub it to DigiBeta, or whatever.
Click to expand...

So,Barry, just because my english helps misunderstandings,
if I'm delivering SD to be broadcasted, better options are in this order:

1) Shoot DV50 Edit DV50 Print DV50 or DigiBeta
2) Shoot HD Edit DV50 Print DV50 or Digibeta
3) Shoot DV (DVX) Edit DV Print DV or whatever
4) Shoot HD Edit DV Print DV or whatever

Correct?
I was amazed a lot of people here were just seeing HD. 4:2:2 on a 1/3 cam that follows the DVX sounds good to me
Many thanks again
Alvise
 
Barry_Green said:
If you bring in the HD footage and just downrez it, it can look beautiful -- but what can you do with it? Eventually it'll have to be compressed to something (whether DV, or WMV9, or something like that). Compressing to DV throws away the "goodness" that it had. DV50 seems to preserve just about all of it, as far as standard-def goes: you get all the goodness, all the sharpness, and you can use it -- you can dub it to DigiBeta, or whatever.
Click to expand...

So,Barry, just because my english helps misunderstandings,
if I'm delivering SD to be broadcasted, better options are in this order:

1) Shoot DV50 Edit DV50 Print DV50 or DigiBeta
2) Shoot HD Edit DV50 Print DV50 or Digibeta
3) Shoot DV (DVX) Edit DV Print DV or whatever
4) Shoot HD Edit DV Print DV or whatever

Correct?
I was amazed a lot of people here were just seeing HD. 4:2:2 on a 1/3 cam that follows the DVX sounds good to me
Many thanks again
Alvise
 
Wow, good job Barry. I had hoped that DV50 would be the ****.

However, I am worried... You have quit a few spanking analogies there... Is there something you want to tell us?
 
Alvise Tedesco said:
if I'm delivering SD to be broadcasted, better options are in this order:

1) Shoot DV50 Edit DV50 Print DV50 or DigiBeta
2) Shoot HD Edit DV50 Print DV50 or Digibeta
3) Shoot DV (DVX) Edit DV Print DV or whatever
4) Shoot HD Edit DV Print DV or whatever

Correct?
Click to expand...
If you're shooting for broadcast, I would say yes, shoot DV50, edit DV50, deliver on DV50 or DigiBeta.

In second place, I would shoot HD, edit HD, then downconvert to DV50 or DigiBeta (whichever your station requires).

In third place I would still shoot DV on the HVX before I'd shoot DV on the DVX, because of the 16:9 issue, the longer lens, the sharper lens, and the tapeless acquisition. But for 4:3 DV, they're very close, and the DVX is a whole lot cheaper. If you can't do DV50, then sure a DVX in DV 4:3 is probably just as good as an HVX in 4:3 DV. In 16:9 DV the HVX does hold a noticeable edge in sharpness.

As for option 4, I'd prefer to avoid that route; I think you'd get a better image shooting DV and editing DV than you would shooting HD and editing as DV.
 
Barry_Green said:
Only if I get a shirt that says "Bob Diaz" on it. Bob's my new favorite poster -- he's like The Professor on Gilligan's island; that cat knows everything! :)
Click to expand...

Hahahahaha! That's great! He's so the professor! (Gotta love Bob.)

(Bob, can you make an HVX out of Bamboo? I'll take one.)

Now, who's the Skipper and Mr. and Mrs. Howell?
 
lpcvideo1 said:
Hahahahaha! That's great! He's so the professor! (Gotta love Bob.)

(Bob, can you make an HVX out of Bamboo? I'll take one.)

Now, who's the Skipper and Mr. and Mrs. Howell?
Click to expand...

Jarred of course is the Skipper....not quite as portly, but with the same demenor;)
 
Barry_Green said:
Only if I get a shirt that says "Bob Diaz" on it. Bob's my new favorite poster -- he's like The Professor on Gilligan's island; that cat knows everything! :)
Click to expand...
:thumbup: since the first one...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top