HVX PAL vs HVX NTSC

Sorry if I'm a bit slow, but let me get this straight...HD has no format (NTSC/PAL etc).

But if you want to shoot HD you still have to shoot it at the right frame rate for the relevant country or region.

So you are effectively still tied to the old formats when shooting in HD because you can't shoot 24p and screen it on tv in a PAL country, and you can't shoot 25p and screen it on tv in an NTSC country.

Is this correct or am I missing something really obvious?

I know that feature films are shot at 24fps, and they screen just fine on tv in PAL countries, so what is it that they do to the footage in order to allow that?
 
No, you've got it correct. The different territories are adopting different frame rates (60hz in US, 50hz in Europe) in order to maintain backwards compatibility with the existing base of NTSC & PAL televisions, and the vast libraries of footage that have already been shot on NTSC and PAL.

So we came close to getting a universal standard, but fell short. The frame size and color space are potentially the same worldwide, but the frame rate is still different. And, keep in mind the EBU still hasn't released its recommendation on the future of European HDTV (afaik) so we're just presuming that it'll be the same sizes/color space... I guess anything could happen... but it sure looks likely that Europe will go 720/50p.

As for films, they show 'em at 24fps and play them at 25fps. So films run 4% slower in European countries, and they stretch the audio to compensate.
 
Thanks Barry!

So films actually screen slower on tv in PAL countries...over a 90 minute feature that 4% adds up to over 3 minutes of extra time..

Do they do something special to the audio so you won't notice it's going slower, or is it so minor when spread throughout the whole film that you'd never pick it up?
 
They've developed technology to slow down the audio while not incurring a pitch change. If they just played the audio 4% slower there would be a noticeable shift in pitch (something like half a semitone, I believe). But broadcasters have been doing this for something like 50 years, so they've developed processes to deal with it.
 
Movies on theaters goes with 24fps but if it shows in television it will be 25fps and it goes 4% faster. You cant see the it, but you can hear it if you have a perfect pitch. From video 25fps to movie 24fps it will be as Barry says.
 
OliverM said:
And I think the PAL will do 24p but only in HD. So just 25p in DV and the entire DVCPRO range. Wich makes sense cause you can't play 24p in a PAL system anyway.
Well, exept for secam countries then.
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Guys, I am trying to follow desperately all the available relevant info about the PAL version of the camera and, please, correct me if I am wrong, but it seems as Barry said that there will be NO 24p in any mode of the PAL version or at least this is not officially, so to speak, disconfirmed. If this is really so I found myself amidst huge dilemma: to buy an NTSC version and just shoot 24p for film and not be able to use the camcorder for anything else, living in a PAL country, or, to buy the PAL version and to do TV related work but not be able to do 24p for film! Any of those is very difficult choice to make, if this is really the case. If the PAL HVX shoots 24p in HD mode and 25p in all the rest that would be perfectly fine, however I got lost in all the links I found and do not know what to think. Could someone help me out here, thanks a lot!
 
Osmicata said:
... there will be NO 24p in any mode of the PAL version or at least this is not officially, so to speak, disconfirmed.
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You don't need 24p, 25p is just perfect to make "film" and "tv-productions". If you shoot film-film for tv than they wants you to shoot in 25fps.

Osmicata said:
... just shoot 24p for film and not be able to use the camcorder for anything else, living in a PAL country, or, to buy the PAL version and to do TV related work but not be able to do 24p for film!
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How many filmtransfer did you have in 2004? Because here we shoot everything in 25p and transfer frame-by-frame to film. Don't worry about the sound. Even you can fix it on your kitchen table.

If you want this camcorder than just buy it and shoot 25p. Or do you think the carate actionmovie makers complaine about not to have 22p on the camcorder?
 
Final specifications have not been released yet. However, I am 99% sure that the European version will do 25p, not 24p. The US version will do 24p and not 25p.
 
Barry_Green said:
As for films, they show 'em at 24fps and play them at 25fps. So films run 4% slower in European countries, and they stretch the audio to compensate.
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Sorry Barry for correcting you, but as you propably know: when you shoot at 24 fps and play at 25 fps, the film will go FASTER. So films shot in 24 fps are 4% shorter in lenght on European and other PAL/25 fps television.
 
Barry, would you agree with SergejIvanovits that 25p would not be a problem for film? For tv it is clear that in a PAL country it is ok, the question was for the film. I guess the frames and the sound are fixable in the post, I am just a little bit frustrated that would not be able to do the same as someone with NTSC camcorder and would have to "fix it in post". Anyway I am sold, so there is no question about HVX, the dilemma was pretty much NTSC - PAL but it seems that there is not much of a choice left, PAL it is.
 
satellitebunny said:
Sorry Barry for correcting you, but as you propably know: when you shoot at 24 fps and play at 25 fps, the film will go FASTER. So films shot in 24 fps are 4% shorter in lenght on European and other PAL/25 fps television.
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DOH! Yes you are absolutely correct! :embarasse
 
Osmicata said:
Barry, would you agree with SergejIvanovits that 25p would not be a problem for film? For tv it is clear that in a PAL country it is ok, the question was for the film. I guess the frames and the sound are fixable in the post, I am just a little bit frustrated that would not be able to do the same as someone with NTSC camcorder and would have to "fix it in post".
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Yes, I think the question of 25p vs. 24p is nearly irrelevant. People have been doing this for four decades, since the introduction of PAL television -- trying to reconcile the 24fps of film with the 50 fields/25 frames of PAL. And they've gotten pretty good at it.

Then you have to factor in: how many projectors are actually running at 24 frames per second? There are reports of lower-budget operators who are cranking their projectors up to 26fps just to get people out of the theater sooner!

25p is the right choice for European countries. Very extremely few movies shot on video will ever have a film transfer, and if it does get transferred to film, the labs are quite expert at dealing with the 25-to-24 issues.
 
Barry_Green said:
Yes, I think the question of 25p vs. 24p is nearly irrelevant. People have been doing this for four decades, since the introduction of PAL television -- trying to reconcile the 24fps of film with the 50 fields/25 frames of PAL. And they've gotten pretty good at it.
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So if, for example, a television drama is shot 25p and it is sold to an NTSC country, would you slow it down to 24p (much the same way for film out) and sort it from there, or would you work with the standard 50i to 60i PAL to NTSC conversion. Would one way look better than the other??

Hmm...or am I just confused...yes...yes i am
 
I would presume they'd shift the 25p to 24 and then add pulldown to make it 60i. I would think a 50i to 60i conversion would likely look awful when the original is 25p and not 50i.
 
Here is a link about the same issue from DV info some time ago:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/archive/index.php/t-31437.html

It seems that there is no straightforward solution to the problem, the best for PAL's to do seems the 4% slow down. I wonder, would not be better if someone who plans to use it mainly for film to purchase the NTSC version and then when "occasionally" has to get something in PAL to speed up at 4%? Does it sound crazy :), and how much more difficult it is then the reverse process?
 
Well, for high-def it's much less "crazy" than it was with standard-def, I'll say that.

With standard-def, the frame rate is different, the color sampling is different, and the frame size is different. With high-def the frame rate is different, but the color sampling and frame size are the same. So if you really wanted to do something like that, I guess you could.

However, I'd say it's still a question that is, well, questionable. The NTSC/60i version will have 24P, yes. But it won't produce a signal you can play on your television (either standard-def PAL or high-def, unless you happen to be lucky enough to have a TV that can play both signals). It won't produce a signal you can broadcast, without conversion. It won't make a signal that you can use to make DVDs from (unless your customers have dual-standard players; I've heard this is not uncommon in Europe).

So understand: if all you're going to do with it is "films", and you never intend to use it as a regular camera, and you don't ever expect to hire yourself out as a cameraman, and you don't ever intend to rent your camera out to someone else, and you don't ever intend to shoot someone's wedding or anything like that, and you don't intend to ever have warranty repair work done on it, then maybe the NTSC/60i version would have a very minor benefit for you (being, that you wouldn't have to change from 25 to 24). But it seems like an enormously restricted situation to put yourself in, just to avoid doing the 25 to 24 conversion. Up to you, of course, but make sure you factor in all the restrictions before you bite the $6,000 bullet!
 
Thanks, Barry, of course this is not going to be the case, a whole lot of other stuff has to go on besides "films", so will swallow the 25p and in the rare, hopefully not so much film cases will do 4% slow down and sound adjust.
 
I just realized, on re-reading that, that it'd be possible for someone to misinterpret my meaning. Please be aware, by putting "films" in quote marks, I was in no way referring to the quality of your productions, only putting in that that meant actual transfer to film (which is a very rare case indeed.) Making movies for television broadcast, a European user would be better off with 25p than 24p, etc. So the quotes around "films" was meant to specifically mean actual celluloid -- actual transfer to film. There are many ways movies can be shown, and "film" is just one, and pretty much the only one where a European user would prefer 24p over 25p.
 
what happens if you shoot a production in 30fps HD? and then have to convert to Aus/Euro standards at 25fps?

how is that done?
 
Do you mean 60i and 50i? Because if you shoot in 30p, you're hosed.

But 50i<->60i conversions are done all the time. There will be image compromises, but it's a common thing to do. The results can range from very good, to putrid, depending on who does the conversion and what hardware they use and stuff like that.
 
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