HV20 vs. HG10 (purchasing help)

W

Welches

New member
Hello. New to the forums here as I am just looking to get into digital video shooting and editing. I was pointed to your forum from macrumors.com.

I have previously dabbled around with Adobe Premiere on a PC years ago while shooting with a very low-end JVC cam. A fun experience but was left wanting more because the equipment was lacking.

I will now be working on a new 24" iMac 2.8GHz running the new Final Cut Express. I am looking at getting a camera to compliment my new system and am debating over these 2.

I won't lie. I am leaning heavily toward the HG10 because it is a much nicer looking/feeling camera. I also like the idea of eliminating tapes and simplifying the capturing process. I have been hands-on (albeit for a quick pickup in store) with both cameras and that partly leads me to leaning towards the HG10.

To me, in-store the image displayed on the LCD seemed much crisper on the HG10 vs the HV20. That says nothing about what will end up on my computer after capturing I know.

So I guess here are some of my questions:

-How is the image quality difference between the two cameras? Will the loss of quality be significant when transferring AVCHD on the HG10?
-I don't see much discussion of the HG10 on these forums. Is that because it is so new? Or is it because there are known issues/difficulties and people are therefore avoiding it?
-If I decide to go the route of an HDD camcorder, is there a significant gain in buying the Sony HDR-SR7 over the Canon HG10? There is a significant price difference with only limited gains from what I can see.

Lastly, from doing a bit of my own research, it seems like I have the ideal setup (if there is such a thing) to work with AVCHD (Intel Mac running FCE). Is that a fair statement?

Thank you all for your help in advance.
 
another point, as I am reading around. it doesn't appear the HG10 will shoot at 240fps like the HV20. i think i would use this option. hmmmm

any guidance would be appreciated.
 
hv20 makes beautiful image in controled inviroments.i just purchased one and was amazed that a camera that looks like this would put out an image like it does.i'd go for th hv20 espeacialy if 24p is what your after.
 
According to some reviews 24p mode mixed with AVCHD compression doesn't produce good results and makes it unusable. You should definitely watch some samples before making your decision. My personal opinion is HV20 is superior to HG10 and using tape is much more convenient, reliable and also better for archiving.
 
I have an HG10 and I can tell you this - you won't be disappointed with the image. I don't have an HV20 to compare image side by side, but there is too much theoreticising on the internet about the theoretical disadvantages of AVCHD, how it is theoretically difficult to work with, how it theoretically has lower image quality than the HV20. All I can say it that as long as your software can read the files, it is no more difficult to work with than anything else, and unless you sit in front of your full HD TV with your face up to the screen, you are unlikely to see anything in the picture not to your liking. (And even if you do, you probably won't see any problem with the picture.) Too much theoreticising, not enough reality. It's a great camera. And it does shoot 24p, you just have to make sure that your software will deal with it and do the inverse telecine properly. I think the problem people have seen with HG10 24p is that a lot of current software has been unable to detect and reverse the pulldown properly. It shouldn't be any different to the HV20's, and according to some threads I've read, it isn't. It's perfect 24p in a 60i container. I don't shoot 24p myself. But once again, the reality is that the vast majority of people don't have equipment which will play 24p properly. So why shoot 24p? And the vast majority won't appreciate its benefits or otherwise over interlace 60i. In fact I would say that the majority would prefer 60i because it's smoother. 60 "pictures" per second instead of 24.

I can't comment about your Mac, but on my 2.4GHz quad core PC editing AVCHD is a breeze. Vegas is incredibly quick dealing with the file format, Elecard Converter Studio transcodes it to HDV at about 1.2 times real time (per pass if you do 2-pass encoding). The reality is that if you have an up-to-date fast computer and the right software, AVCHD is the way to go. Bury the tapes forever.
 
You should be aware that Final Cut Express can't handle 24fps footage in the true sense so if you plan to do much 24fps filming (and if you remove the pulldown) FCE won't work.
 
pagophilus said:
I have an HG10 and I can tell you this - you won't be disappointed with the image. I don't have an HV20 to compare image side by side, but there is too much theoreticising on the internet about the theoretical disadvantages of AVCHD, how it is theoretically difficult to work with, how it theoretically has lower image quality than the HV20. All I can say it that as long as your software can read the files, it is no more difficult to work with than anything else, and unless you sit in front of your full HD TV with your face up to the screen, you are unlikely to see anything in the picture not to your liking. (And even if you do, you probably won't see any problem with the picture.) Too much theoreticising, not enough reality. It's a great camera. And it does shoot 24p, you just have to make sure that your software will deal with it and do the inverse telecine properly. I think the problem people have seen with HG10 24p is that a lot of current software has been unable to detect and reverse the pulldown properly. It shouldn't be any different to the HV20's, and according to some threads I've read, it isn't. It's perfect 24p in a 60i container. I don't shoot 24p myself. But once again, the reality is that the vast majority of people don't have equipment which will play 24p properly. So why shoot 24p? And the vast majority won't appreciate its benefits or otherwise over interlace 60i. In fact I would say that the majority would prefer 60i because it's smoother. 60 "pictures" per second instead of 24.

I can't comment about your Mac, but on my 2.4GHz quad core PC editing AVCHD is a breeze. Vegas is incredibly quick dealing with the file format, Elecard Converter Studio transcodes it to HDV at about 1.2 times real time (per pass if you do 2-pass encoding). The reality is that if you have an up-to-date fast computer and the right software, AVCHD is the way to go. Bury the tapes forever.
Click to expand...

Can you please comment on 24p mode. Some reviews suggest it is unusable because both panning and tilting create a very choppy movement, even when moving slowly. When you switch to it do you see such an effect? And can you please post a 24p video if it is possible. Thanks.
 
Those reports come from places like camcorderinfo.com. Turn to a place where people know what they're doing, like Les Dit's tests on DVInfo, and you'll find that there's *no difference* in motion rendition AT ALL between the HV20 and HG10.
http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=106626

Les says "Just to cap off the subject, there is no difference in strobing or stuttering between the HG10 and HV20."

He also references this thread:
http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=107463

This notion that HG10's 24p is "stuttery" is nonsense coming from people who don't know how to work with AVC-HD footage.
 
vsansal said:
Can you please comment on 24p mode. Some reviews suggest it is unusable because both panning and tilting create a very choppy movement, even when moving slowly. When you switch to it do you see such an effect? And can you please post a 24p video if it is possible. Thanks.
Click to expand...

I can shoot and post a 24p video but only if I can remove the pulldown (Vegas Movie Studio Platinum doesn't and I've been playing with Procoder but haven't tried removing pulldown yet).
 
Even without the pulldown removed it should give us an idea. Or you can use TMPGenc 4 Xpress for that but I don't think it supports AVCHD file input so you may need to convert your files to mpeg2 or AVI before using the software.
 
These posts (and continually reading online) are making me lean more towards the HV20.

I am interested in making studio-looking short films (along with casual shooting of events and whatnot). As everyone seems to mention, I love the look of the "Rainy Day" video that is out there almost promoting the HV20.

http://vimeo.com/431500

There is a segment in that video where the person is running up a hill and it is in slow motion. That is a cool effect used at the proper moments. I want to be able to pull this off. Can this effect be accomplished with both of these cameras or only the HV20?

Scottdvx100 said:
You should be aware that Final Cut Express can't handle 24fps footage in the true sense so if you plan to do much 24fps filming (and if you remove the pulldown) FCE won't work.
Click to expand...

So are you saying I would need FCP to use 24fps?
 
I can confirm there is nothing wrong with HG10's 24p. Went outside yesterday evening and did a pan right to left in my back yard, slow at first then fast to see how bad a fast pan looks in 24p. Removed pulldown with Procoder. No jerkiness, stuttering etc.

File is located at:

http://web.aanet.com.au/leothelion/Test/24pTest.mpg

I'll leave it there a week or so.

It's about 5.7MB, 22 seconds reduced to DVD 16:9 (NTSC) resolution at 23.976fps.
 
Last edited:
Very new to this - sorry if very basic question.
In the test clip, saw some very slight stuttering in the vertical white drain pipe, but not bad. But as the cam panned, the horizontal brick mortar lines did the "jitters". Don't know the term, but the effect is really annoying. The vert ical lines of the fence were fine. Is that a characteristic of all video with this general level of camcorder?
Viewed as mpg with Windows Media Player on a Gateway HD TFT LCD monitor.
 
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