HV 20 announced

and it is full raster, with no pixel shifting of any kind.
Well, of course it can't have pixel shifting; it's a single chip. You need 3 chips to be able to take advantage of the spatial offset between chips.

But single-system bayer patterns have never been described as a way to increase quality -- everybody has always wanted the 3-chip camera over the 1-chip for very good reasons!

I would imagine that the HDMI out, if the live signal does indeed bypass HDV compression entirely, would be a true 1920 x 1080 image in full progressive glory.
Wha? No no no no no. It's a single-sensor bayer de-mosaic system. It won't be anywhere near 1920x1080 by the time the de-mosaic'ing is done.

I mean, yes it's a 1920 x 1080 chip, but that's only in monochrome! You've got to do a very pixel-shift-like process to turn that into a color image. But unlike pixel shift, which gains resolution, the de-mosaic process loses res. Heck, just laying the bayer filter over the sensor basically causes you to lose res, because you start with a green resolution that's 1/2 the res of the chip (since two of every four pixels have a green filter over them) and red and blue resolution that's 1/4 the res of the chip. So you've got a 960x1080 green source, and a 960x540 red source, and a 960 x 540 blue source. Nowhere near true 1920x1080 color res (which would be possible if you had three 1920x1080 chips; with the bayer pattern on a single chip you get 1/2-1/4-1/4). And then you have to basically pixel-shift that all around to try to guess what the actual color should be, using nearest-neighbor or bicubic or spline algorithms, all to magically reconstruct what the proper color value should be for each "macro-pixel". It's worse than pixel shift, because at least with a 3-CCD pixel shift system you have color information for each pixel on each CCD, all simultaneously; with a bayer pattern only one color can be sensed for each pixel. Demosaicing algorithms are pretty good, so it's not as dire as it sounds, but I'd guess that it'll probably end up losing 20-30% through the bayer filter and resultant demosaic processing. Still not bad, competitive with the other systems, but come on, to imply that it'd be anywhere near a full 1920x1080 is just not going to be accurate; neither would it be accurate to imply that a de-mosaic'd bayer sensor is somehow a "pure" type of resolution. We can be excited for this Canon for what it is ($1099 and 24P) but let's not go trying to make it into something it isn't. :thumbsup:

Check out the wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demosaicing
 
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Well, I'm guessing it will be near full raster resolution because the chip itself is oversampled. It claims to be actually around 3 MP, so maybe after the de-bayering process it really is 1920x1080.

One thing I know is the HV10's 1080i stuff is very sharp. That would lead me to believe that there is some oversampling involved in order to yield video that truly looks like sharp 1080i.
 
Well, if it's seriously oversampled then that does counteract some of the bayer pattern inefficiencies, provided that the lens can resolve that higher resolution.
 
HV10 is as sharp as a Loraina Bobbit weapon. But, now that I've had a chance to calm down from the initial hype... I'm wondering what Pana's gonna bring AND, if there's an AVC-HD HV20 around the corner or something.

We've JUST made it out of January this past hour and look what new has dropped?

But, my, that HV20 sounds jummy.
 
The HV20 does sound danged promising. I am excited about it because I think there's thousands and thousands of kids out there who always wished they could afford a $3500 DVX, and then they saw the $3500 XHA1, and they thought "someday"... and I think for a lot of 'em, the HV20 might just turn that all into "today." Hats off to Canon for truly democratizing 24p and slashing the cost of entry into shooting 24p. $1099 for 1080/24p. I don't care if it was sharp as an Adam Sandler student film, that's awesome. The DVX has been the cheapest 24p camera so far, standard-def or high-def, and now Canon's just cut the cost of entry to 1/3 for getting 24p.

I think Canon has got some momentum. And yes, it is only the end of January; who knows what else is coming... they're popping up fairly fast and furious already!
 
I had the same thoughts. Entry cost for some awesome looking film-like cadence at about 1k... some hidden talent's going to go "Hey now I can compete!" and leap on this for a birthday present or even saving pennies. Sheesh.

I'm glad that Canon whipped the 24p handy-cam out, though. I honestly hope this drives everyone else to step it up with their content instead of relying on the toys. I know, I love toys. I'm going crazy over the HV20, but I still spend my time writing even while stocking up on hammers and nails.

Said that to T-h-e-w-h-o, though... just means you need to step up your game.
 
for reference, here's a still from some footage I shot on my HV10 a few weeks ago. shutter was set to 1/30 so there's a slight bit of smearing.
 
Barry_Green said:
The HV20 does sound danged promising. I am excited about it because I think there's thousands and thousands of kids out there who always wished they could afford a $3500 DVX, and then they saw the $3500 XHA1, and they thought "someday"... and I think for a lot of 'em, the HV20 might just turn that all into "today." Hats off to Canon for truly democratizing 24p and slashing the cost of entry into shooting 24p. $1099 for 1080/24p. I don't care if it was sharp as an Adam Sandler student film, that's awesome. The DVX has been the cheapest 24p camera so far, standard-def or high-def, and now Canon's just cut the cost of entry to 1/3 for getting 24p.

I think Canon has got some momentum. And yes, it is only the end of January; who knows what else is coming... they're popping up fairly fast and furious already!

just think how the HV20 will look on YouTube, iTunes podcast, cell phones, MySpace, your HDTV and who know,even the big screen. Make a low budget film and self promote it. Times are changing so fast. A top of the line $1,000 will probably be just as good as a $3600 camera on YouTube.

I'm not a kid anymore but I have them in college and this HV20 sounds pretty good. I guess we will see what else comes out in the next few months.
 
Tim Le said:
We're all use to 3CCD being the "best" but personally I'm beginning to prefer the single sensor approach especially if they squeeze a bigger sensor in there (a la RED ONE). Imagine working with a 1/2" or even 2/3" sensor and its larger pixels and shallower DOF. The latitude would be better and the DOF characteristics of 2/3" approaches 16mm film. Of course the lens would have to be bigger but the sensor unit would be smaller because there is only one sensor and no prism. Man, just think about it...a 2/3" camera with a reduced zoom ratio fixed lens, say 30mm to 300mm just might be small enough and affordable enough because of the single sensor. Canon could totally pull that off since they make the CMOS sensors and optics. And they're the only ones listening so if you want something like that you should make it known. One things seems for sure, CMOS is the future.

fingers crossed!

the logical step would be to upgrade their sensor size optimized for less noise and wider dynamic range and since many pro cameras have already proven a single sensor design works, lets hope they get over their 3ccd "pro" and combine those little sensors into a big one.

on a (minimum) 2/3 sensor with 1080p resolution that could be comparable in "latitude" to Red's 12MP mysterium sensor. IMHO the Red would of been much neater with less pixels that would of paved the way for more latitude and less burdened workflow by todays standards.

i will take the HV20 for now and wait to see what else is in store tommorow. things are looking very exciting.
 
If it indeed can produce stunning 25P images, I got this crazy idea of mounting it on my DVX and use the HV20 for Picture and DVX for sound. :)
 
MovieSwede said:
If it indeed can produce stunning 25P images, I got this crazy idea of mounting it on my DVX and use the HV20 for Picture and DVX for sound. :)
unlike the HV10, the HV20 has a mic port -- (and you obviously could attach an XLR adapter as well if you need to)
 
You know, to me, even if it turns out that the 24p mode isn't as good as the 24f modes, the HV20 would still make a killer behind the scenes camera in 1080i. So unless something better comes out to beat it, I plan on getting one of these after I get all of my RED stuff figured out.
 
I read once at DVinfo that somebody asked Canon why they didn't put 24p into their HV10, they said the majority of their users don't use 24p.
 
Makes a great deck plus has some other actual use, ill be putting my order in. But now I am poised. For what?

The next prosumer from Canon that comes out with LARGER than 1/3 inch (same as the HV20) but with 3 cmos chips recording in AVC HD.
 
Norbert said:
This camera definitely has the wow factor, but it still lacks what the A1 lacks - cheap, tapeless workflow. I can't help to think that Canon has to jump the AVCHD-recording-to-SD-card-wagon pretty soon and that they are trying to sell as many new HDV cameras as possible before that happens.
Definitely true. Although to be honest, I'd really like to see some higher bitrate AVCHD. I'm just not impressed with anything I've seen yet. So far the HDV coming from Canon still looks better to me than the AVCHD samples I've seen. The established editing workflows don't hurt either, though that's obviously going to be addressed. Actually now that I think of it, you could buy a firestore for this and still be in the same price range as the competing AVCHD cams...


Norbert said:
Anyway, if Panasonic doesn't come up with anything better before April, I'm buying one. :D The only real downside to this camera is that it doesn't have a focus ring.
The focus ring is the only, and I mean only, thing they seem to have left out. Other than that, this is the HDV Optura I always hoped they'd come out with - though even in my most optimistic thinking I didn't REALLY believe 24P would be on the table..
 
Barry_Green said:
The HV20 does sound danged promising. I am excited about it because I think there's thousands and thousands of kids out there who always wished they could afford a $3500 DVX, and then they saw the $3500 XHA1, and they thought "someday"... and I think for a lot of 'em, the HV20 might just turn that all into "today." Hats off to Canon for truly democratizing 24p and slashing the cost of entry into shooting 24p. $1099 for 1080/24p. I don't care if it was sharp as an Adam Sandler student film, that's awesome. The DVX has been the cheapest 24p camera so far, standard-def or high-def, and now Canon's just cut the cost of entry to 1/3 for getting 24p.

I think Canon has got some momentum. And yes, it is only the end of January; who knows what else is coming... they're popping up fairly fast and furious already!

Great perspective, Barry. Very well said. :) This is the product that is going to push the envelope of what's possible at very low price points. I sincerely hope Sony and Panasonic come up with some great alternatives because this is the stuff that is going to make HD much more relevant from a consumer camcorder perspective, and at the same time, democratizing 24p HD for the masses. It'll also create more demand for BluRay and HD DVD authoring with iDVD simplicity.

This will truly be the year of HD migration.
 
ncje said:
The next prosumer from Canon that comes out with LARGER than 1/3 inch (same as the HV20) but with 3 cmos chips recording in AVC HD.

AVCHD was designed as a consumer format. And did you look at the footage? It looks worse than HDV in my opinion. And currently it's only Sony and Panasonic with AVCHD.

AVC-Intra would be a much more viable format for a prosumer camera. But then again, the bit rates are too high. I'm good with HDV for now. It looks a lot better than the 2Mb/s on TV.
 
Well, yes... but if Canon keeps going for blood even when they are making AVCHD cameras, I think (hope) they will make them record at a higher bitrate (maybe the same as their HDV cameras), making the image look better than HDV.
 
AuditoryVisuals said:
AVC-Intra would be a much more viable format for a prosumer camera. But then again, the bit rates are too high. I'm good with HDV for now. It looks a lot better than the 2Mb/s on TV.

Yes, you are right. My post wasnt well thought out, some excitment over the future.
 
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