Hpx300 rumors

[typo]

Actually, I was very much eager to share this exciting information with the rest of you. I'm always looking forward to advancements in the industry and care for technology moving forward.

Right now, I'm interested in differences between MOS, CMOS and what can we expect from this camera.

 

[Dino]

And the fact that both Fujinon and Canon make several 1/3" HD lenses, including $9K wide angles means 1/3" HD interchangeables make sense to them as well. One of the major complaints owners have about the HPX500 is that 2/3" glass costs more than the camera. And a lot of 500 users are trying to get by using SD lenses instead . Where's the sense in that? If you can build a 1/3" P2 camera that takes advantage of Canon and Fujinon's existing range of 1/3" HD glass selling at half the cost of their 2/3" lenses, why not?

I think using a top end SD series Fuji or Canon lens with the HPX500 makes a lot of sense. In fact, I think these lenses are better than the low end HD series lenses by Fuji and Canon--however the CAC circuit works well to hide the chromatic aberration issues.

Most of the good 1/3" lenses I see by Fuji and Canon are $6-13K, with most at $9K. This is no different from the HD glass used most often with the HPX500.

I would have zero interest in lugging around a 13 lb. camera with the depth offield of a 1/3" palmcorder, nor investing that amount of money in glass for a 1/3" camera.

It is clear that Panasonic needs to address the EX3, so an HPX300 makes sense, but not a 1/3" big heavy camera, IMO.

 

[Barry_Green]

I'm pretty sure this new camera is not a palmcorder form factor,

If it's 13 pounds, I hope it isn't a palmcorder!

so a 1/3" sensor of whatever type in a full size shoulder mount camera doesn't make sense.

Again, all those ones I mentioned are shoulder mount. The JVCs can't really be called full-size, because they're little tiny cameras, but they do fit on the shoulder and use a full ENG form factor. The XLH1 is sort of a shoulder-mount. The HVRS270, however, is pretty much full-size, full shoulder-mount, full ENG form factor. And it weighs 14 pounds. So, all I'm saying is, it's been done before, so would it be so unreasonable to see it be done again? Whether it makes sense or not is up to the individual buyer. I would imagine there are a ton of event shooters who'd love to show up with an $8,000-$10,000 camera (including lens!) that looks like a $35,000 camera; whether they'd want that camera to be 8-bit long-GOP HDV tape, or 10-bit I-frame AVC-Intra P2, would appear to be the main distinction between Sony's offering and typo's proposed HPX301.

Then again, there's already the HPX500 positioned there in the market, at full 2/3" and just $8,000 for the body. Throw a cheap SD lens on there and you're talking about 2/3" P2 vs. 1/3" HDV tape already... but, as BerkelyBob points out, the lens cost for an actual HD lens is as much as, or twice what the body is, so maybe there is a market for a 1/3" version.

I think broadcasters, especially individual stations, could eat up something like that. P2 slays tape for news work. And stations are getting cheaper all the time; they're already using HPX170s, and HVX200s by the truckloads, so a shoulder-mount cheap camera... maybe...

Anyway, as you say, we'll see in a few months since everyone who's claiming inside information seems to be saying it's only a few months away.

 

[Barry_Green]

My source is from Panasonic directly. This information is still not for public.

But we're the public... :evil:

Anyway, if your source is Panasonic itself, I imagine someone is going to get into quite a bit of trouble for "leaking" information. I guess we'll know in a few months how much, if any, of this is accurate. There's been no official word or even an official hint of any new product coming yet.

Actually, I too was hoping they'd take a different route and avoid using MOS for their pro line. We'll just have to wait and see.

Well, it's a matter of physical impossibility to get a 1920x1080 1/3" CCD. So if the specs you're saying are accurate, there's very few ways they could get there.

1) they could use interlaced chips, like Canon did, but even then they'd max out at 1440x1080; you can't get a full 1920x1080 out of 1/3" even in interlaced mode. And then you'd be giving up 60P. I can't fathom them doing that, no way.

2) they could use two chips glued together, like JVC did. But then you'd be subject to the dreaded Split Screen Effect, and I can't imagine they'd do that.

3) they could use lower-pixel-count spatial-offset chips. That's a proven technique, but on 1/3" chip size it wouldn't take full advantage of AVC-Intra's full-raster recording so - would it truly make sense? Why go Intra if you can't take advantage of its capabilities? The prefiltered nature of DVCPRO-HD lends itself better to the spatial offset technique, so if you'd said the new camera was DVCPRO-HD instead of AVC-Intra, I could certainly see this working. Take the HPX170's chipset, put it in a full-size body, and yeah, there's a market for that. But then there'd still be the whining from the pixel-count crowd who'd complain that Sony has full-raster chips so why doesn't Panasonic? And, besides, there's already the HPX500 which is a spatial-offset CCD camera in a full-size body, so why introduce another?

4) they could go CMOS (or 3MOS) as you say they have. Now there's the possibility to get a full-raster chipset which would take advantage of AVC-Intra's full-raster recording. But it's CMOS, which means all the same rolling-shutter complaints would come into play. There's no free lunch. Would they do that? We do know that they have "3MOS" technology on some of their consumer lineup, so we know they CAN do it. I guess it's all down to whether people demand full-raster pixels or not; if they do, then MOS is the only technology out right now which can deliver that, at the small chip size.

So, it leads me back to the prior conclusion: if what you've reported is accurate (a 1920x1080 1/3" chip) then it has to be CMOS (or some new breakthrough technology we've never heard of yet!) If it's 1/2" maybe it could be a CCD using interlace scanning, but I simply cannot imagine them giving up 60P so I think that's impossible. If it's 1920x1080 CCD, then it will have to be 2/3".

Fun times, I guess, but ... I dunno, doesn't it seem odd to be announcing (well, not announcing, rumoring) a new product right after the 170 is introduced, and having it be rumored to be introduced in February, two months BEFORE NAB?

 

[Stevet]

Nonetheless, It should be interesting!

I imagine if Panasonic did go CMOS (3MOS) discussion may get real interesting here

Having said that, if they did go CMOS, I'm sure the refresh rate would be faster than Sony's current EX cams. Things only improve...

 

[Barry_Green]

I know more than a few have asked for EX1 resolution with Panasonic "mojo".

Still can't find anything out about "3MOS" and why they call it that instead of just saying "3 CMOS". I'm also curious about the pixel density, and as to whether you could really pull off a full 1920x1080 on a 1/3" CMOS. Their existing 3MOS camcorder lineup uses 610k pixels on a 1/6" chip size, though, so ... 1/3" is twice as wide and twice as tall, so yes, 1920x1080 seems possible in a 1/3" size.

 

[Barry_Green]

Ooooh, okay, now things are getting a little interesting... check out this link from a CEATAC blog on the official Panasonic Japan web site.
http://ex-blog.panasonic.co.jp/exhibition/en/2008/10/ceatec08_640.html

In there it says that their 3MOS is based on CMOS, but it's sort of a hybrid CCD/CMOS? Not sure exactly what it's saying, but what it says is:

Thus, Panasonic has developed the "νMAICOVICON." This is a new MOS sensor technology, that is based on the same structure as the CMOS sensor, yet offers the "high image quality" of the CCD and the "low power consumption" of the CMOS with 3 core technologies, the "new structural pixel technology" that expands the light reception area and enhances the sensitivity, "low-noise process technology" that reduces noise in images, and the "signal readout circuit technology" that realizes lower voltage and lower power consumption.

That's all promising. A 1920x1080 1/3" chip would certainly raise eyebrows for sensitivity and noise concerns, but if they've addressed those specifically, then...

Well, bah. It's all still just speculation.

 

[Barry_Green]

Okay, further... I figured "νMAICOVICON" must be some sort of japanese->to->english translation error, because seriously... who would name something that? But apparently they did, as I googled it and brought up a whole bunch of links. I guess it stands for "New Matsushita Advanced Image Converter for Vision Construction"

The translated Wiki entry for it says

νMaicovicon is, CCD and high sensitivity of the image sensor, CMOS combines low power consumption of the image sensor was developed as a new solid-state imaging device.

初搭載は2004年のN900iG 。​

First mounted in 2004 N900iG.

現在ではパナソニック モバイルコミュニケーションズ 、 NEC製携帯電話端末に採用されている。​

Today MOBAIRUKOMYUNIKESHONZU Panasonic, NEC has [URL="http://74.125.47.100/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%25E6%2597%25A5%25E6%259C%25AC%25E9%259B%25BB%25E6%25B0%2597&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%25CE%25BDMAICOVICON%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG&usg=ALkJrhhvTYfmzNgWfPYWsS15Wfky-8sl3w"]been adopted by[/URL] mobile-phone.

しかしFOMA 905i/705iシリーズ以降の機種では搭載機種が皆無となっている。​

But since the FOMA 905i/705i Series models are equipped with zero models.

一方、CCDイメージセンサがほぼ独占していたビデオカメラでも、2008年7月に発売されたパナソニックのデジタルハイビジョンカメラ「HDC-SD100/HS100」にνMaicoviconが採用された。​

Meanwhile, CCD video camera with a monopoly in most of the image sensor, the Panasonic DEJITARUHAIBIJONKAMERA July 2008 was released on Monday "HDC-SD100/HS100" was adopted in νMaicovicon.

 

[Barry_Green]

Searching νMAICOVICON on panasonic.co.jp brings up a lot of PDFs in Japanese, so no further help there. Unless, of course, someone who reads Japanese wants to root through them and translate?

In any case, whether there is an HPX300 or not, whether it's CMOS or not, it seems like they're experimenting with some new takes on MOS sensors.

 

[DC]

Sounds like the pieces of the puzzle may be slowly coming together.

I'm definitely very interested in this hypothetical "HPX300" model and the new technology it might use. As much as I love my HPX170, I wish I knew about this BEFORE I bought it. However, I'm not going to whine about it. I'll continue to use my HPX170 until something better comes along (and a need to upgrade).

 

[Dino]

Interesting find Barry. The plot thickens! I would, however, like to make a couple of points about AVC Intra, even with a pixel shifted CCD chip set. With AVC Intra you would get the benefit of 10 bit depth, lower compression and higher pixel sampling, which could pay dividends even with 720p.

I do not see any AVC Intra P2 based camera as being that useful for event shooting. 32Gb and 64Gb cards are expensive and AVC Intra, even at its lower 50Mbps option still isn't as efficient as DVCPRO HD 720/24P Native--albeit close.

Whatever may or may not be coming out Q1 2009, I don't see it as competing with
the HPX170 if it weighs 13 lbs. and costs a few thousand dollars more.

Regarding 1/3" lenses, I wouldn't spend $8-9K on a 1/2" lens, much less 1/3".

 

[Barry_Green]

Depends on the slots though; the other full-size cams have four or five slots, and five slots means a lot of recording time... even at 100mbps. At 50mbps AVC-I you can get 1080/60i or 720/60p, which I would wager would be much more useful for event shooting than 24p. So even though 720/24pN is 40mbps, I think there's still a lot of appeal to a 50mbps HD 60i/60P.

Then again, I would expect an event shooter would be more likely to be drawn to SDHC AVC-HD instead... full-res, full-raster, 24mbps, and cheapo memory recording. I would expect Intra would be more appealing to news & professional production.

 

[Barry_Green]

Regarding 1/3" lenses, I wouldn't spend $8-9K on a 1/2" lens, much less 1/3".

Way agreed. That's crazy pricing for a 1/3" system. Most of Canon's lenses are in the $1500-$2500 ballpark.

Then again, the Fujinon 18x with extender for the JVC lists for almost $14,000 at B&H! Even the one without the extender is $9,000.

But, they also offer a 17x for $3,000. Looks like the pricing for 1/3" lenses is all over the place.

 

[Buck Forester]

νMAICOVICON is a catchy name. I hope this super secret rumored hybrid CMOS/CCD really is the best of both in a small form factor. That'd be cool. I might wait for the νMAICOVICONa though.

 

[Simon Höfer]

νMAICOVICON is a catchy name. I hope this super secret rumored hybrid CMOS/CCD really is the best of both in a small form factor. That'd be cool. I might wait for the νMAICOVICONa though.

Well, the PDFs on panasonic.co.jp are all quite old. They are about

νMAICOVICON which is used since 2005 I think, so it no new technology on itself. What is special about it, is that it is very small. They use it in Cellphones. They get a very high pixel count on a tiny ultra slim chip and it needs very low voltage (2.9Volts instead of 10-15V for CCDs). Mainly used to take pictrues. But they realized a quality VGA (Video Graphics Array: 640 pixels × 480 pixels) possibility.

That's quite old information. Means by now they could have developed it alot further to make a new descent chip.
​

 

[DC]

. . . νMAICOVICON which is used since 2005 I think, so it no new technology on itself . . . Means by now they could have developed it alot further to make a new descent chip.

I think that's the key idea. I mean, who knows if any of this is true. For all we know, nothing will be announced in February. Or . . . we could all be very pleasantly surprised. I mean, who knew the HPX170 had been under development for so long until we saw a prototype (or was it only a mockup?) at NAB 2008!

 

[Dino]

Then again, I would expect an event shooter would be more likely to be drawn to SDHC AVC-HD instead... full-res, full-raster, 24mbps, and cheapo memory recording. I would expect Intra would be more appealing to news & professional production.

Exactly my point. This would be more of a news/corporate/indie camera than event camera.

I'm curious as to who is buying $13K 1/3" lenses?

 

[Stevet]

It sounds like Panny is up to something good!

 

[Joe Lawry]

You wouldnt think too many people would be buying them..

Im in the same mind as you Jeff, i wouldn't invest in anything but 2/3" glass..

In saying that i used an EX3 with an HD 1/2" fuji wide yesterday.. cant remember the model.. but it was nice.

1/3" Native 1080 chips with AVC I would be amazing, there's no way we'll get 1/2", they'd slay their big cameras.. And if they can put a broadcast lens on the front with real stops im sold... as long as the stock lens isn't rubbish.. or then we'll be the ones buying 1/3" lenses!

 

[Noel Evans]

I'm curious as to who is buying $13K 1/3" lenses?

As am I, as those dollars could seriously be better spent elsewhere.