HPX300 + 7D at 720/30p

T

tommygunn

Active member
I posted this in the 7D forum, with no responses so I thought I would post here too.

For an upcoming shoot I plan on using my HPX300 as the A camera, and my 7D as the B camera. I'd like to shoot my HPX in 720/30p. I know that the 7D records 720 only at 60p.

So....my questions are:
Can I convert the 60p 7D footage using Streamclip or Cinema tools to 30P?
Will there be any audio sync issues?
Any other issues to be aware of?

Thanks,
Tommy
 
As John Stewart would say: "2 things"

THe 7 D in 720 mode is not so good. Depending on what you put in front of the camera the artifacts and aliasing in 720 mode from the 7D can be really bad.

The resolution that the 7D makes in 720 is going to be significantly worse than the 300. In 1080 mode the 7 D resolution is some what better than standard definition video, 720 even less.

Subject matter is really the most important thing. If its talking heads you can probably get away with it , but really be vigilant for image artifacts.
 
Hey Mark,

It is a run and gun corporate event that will go to web and DVD. I was hoping to shoot in 720 (particularly on the HPX to save some P2 card space, plus eliminate some skew). But it sounds like it would be best to shoot both in 1080/30p - eh?
 
Hey Tommy,

Are you just handing off raw footage? If you can, shoot the HPX in 720 and shoot the 7D in 1080p30, then batch downconvert the 7D footage to 720p30 before editing (easy if you're going to transcode anyway). If you shoot both in 1080 or both in 720, the difference in sharpness will be very apparent. If you shoot the HPX in 720 and the 7D in 1080, you'll (roughly) level the playing field in terms of resolution. The two still have a different feel to the footage (mostly due to the latitude and sensitivity of the 7D) but color correction will take care of that.

Make sure to match white balance between the cameras to make it easy to match the footage... I usually white balance to a card on the HPX and then dial in that Kelvin reading on the 7D, seems to work well enough.
 
From my limited experience with the 7D & 300 combo it seems that the 7D has a higher gamma or in other words more contrast. Canon seems to be choosing the gamma to hide the compression artifacts in the darker parts of the image. I have heard that the 7D has a flatter shooting profile in video mode and that the compression artifacts are very noticeable in that mode.

Max might be able to give you some settings that would be a closer match between the 2 cameras electronically, though I agree with the idea of white balancing the 2 cameras in the same place/light as a starting point. That worked out the best in the project that I did.
 
Max: I will be shooting and cutting it myself. You make an interesting point to shoot the HPX at 720, the 7D at 1080, then downconvert the 7D to 720. I will try it. I definitely understand there will be two different looks with the cameras. They don't have to look identical. I was going to use the 7D for creative shots/b-roll and the HPX for the subject matter. That's how I planned on white balancing...glad to see it works well enough.

Mark: Thanks for the tip, that's good to know.

Thanks fellas.
 
On the project I did we shot 1080 on both cameras and fortunately we didn't encounter subject matter that produced aliasing artifacts on the 7D. With white balancing both cameras we were close enough to color correct without difficulty any minor differences between cameras. If you are shooting avc-i you have a lot of room to maneuver in CC with the 300 material.
 
How does the 300 compare with the 7d ? It's a strange time we are in when the video mode on a stills camera is used in place of dedicated professional video cameras.
 
I think it depends on a lot of factors... there's certainly merit to the DoF possibilities offered by the SLRs that can't be had without an adapter on a video camera, and the sensitivity/ISO performance is noticeably better on the SLRs, but just in terms of image quality and flexibility in post, I'd say the 300 wins hands-down.

I think a reason a lot of people are drawn to the 7D footage is that (as Mark pointed out above) the 7D seems to curve everything up towards the highlights, which gives the impression of wider latitude and tends to make poorly-lit footage look more evenly/fully lit than a video camera's much flatter response curve. If you have the cinematography knowledge (and resources) to properly light a scene, you'd get better results from a proper video camera (although, of course, any camera will perform its best here).

Ergonomics-wise, the two are on opposite ends of the spectrum. The 300 is fantastic to use, controls are well laid-out, feels great to hold, and has all the standard video camera accoutrements. The 7D is a nightmare by comparison, cannot be handheld without a rig, needs separate sound recording (or clunky adapters), has very few exposure tools, and little else to help you along (although it does have a pretty sweet digital level).

Having said that, the shallow-DOF 35mm look is "in" now and, beyond indies and music videos, it's becoming more popular (and requested) in commercial work as well. We own both a 7D and 300, and it's generally pretty obvious on each project which will be the better choice. Both get used, and for the cost of a 7D, there's few reasons not to get one just to have those options in your kit.
 
Someone posted this photo over in the 5D forum a while ago (can't find the original thread now) and I thought it was a perfect illustration of the ergonomics argument:

(...still, I'd love to have this rig for my 7D)
 

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I did 18 interviews last week where the 302 was the main camera and the 7d was my second camera...

Now I had very little time and space as we we're filming people at their workstations...

I shot mainly with a 50mm lens at f2.8 for the 7d...

I would have to say that the 7D beat the 302 in overall look and feel...

Cheers

Timeline stills below of 7d
 

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"I can break the image on a DSLR so fast it isn't funny."...

Don't really know what that means....

It's all part of the kit mow....

In the case of the pics above... the 7D was set up on a rinky little tripod next to the 302...

In the end the 302 mainly just did the audio for me... and kept the client happy that there was a big camera...

Cheers
 
Break the image means - what it means create aliasing, artifacts, etc. Sure a 7D has a place in the kit right now. ITs a fun B cam for places that other cameras don't fit, can be an interview camera if you can live with the 12 minute clip length. As a general purpose tool for shooting I still find it very lacking. By the time you franken-rig it with grips and shoulder supports so you can operate it some way with comfort, what have you got?
 
Yeah cool... what can I say... 'am I happy that a camera I paid about $15k AU 8mths ago has been superseded and I've got no upgrade path...

The 300 in 1080 probably falls apart more than the Canon at this point... I guess the 370 has fixed that up... but I ain't going to get a 370 am I...

I've been burnt twice buy Panasonic... First with the 200 and now with the 300...

I'm enjoying using the Canon.... reminds me of when I started filming... you actually have to think when you shoot...

Is it the answer to everything.... of course not... but bang for buck.. I wished I never bought the 300....

And by they way... if you do end up rigging it right up.. you've got one very powerful tool at your disposal... and it looks mighty impressive... and guess what... you'd still have change to buy 2 more complete kits for the price of one 300...

It's only going to get better from here boys...

Cheers

PS... some fun with the 302... (very tough conditions for any camera as there was probably 4000 watts 2 feet from their heads)

http://vimeo.com/11794743
 
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Umm not sure what your reference is to the 200, but I have a 200 from 2006. I've made quite a lot of money off that camera. I don't really care that there was a 200A. Actually, what I realize is that Canon will piss you off too with the way that they release new models of DSLRS on the first wednesday of every other month.

Its really silly. I actually don't care much about any technology any more. If I can make the pictures I like and my clients pay me for, I pretty much don't care. Beyond the weak codec in the DSLRs what I mostly care about is my physical relationship with the camera. This is the main reason I don't like DSLRs. They are very much compromised and by the time they get franken rigged they aren't any better than the the shouder mount form factor and they still have the long list of short comings.
 
I bought the 550d today. It amazes me that video this nice can come from a camera worth less than one of my 64 gig p2 cards. I'm looking at my 300 on the bench and it's somewhat disheartening that it can be so clearly out classed by a $ 1000 consumer stills camera. I plan on using the 300 for at least another two years but I think more and more HDSLR shots will creep into my work.
 
I think everyone makes good points. For me, Canon (et al) needs to to solve the ergonomics, storage and audio issues with the HDSLRs - without having to franken-rig (I like that term!) - before I'll actually buy one to use for any serious work. For things like time lapse shots, cramped spaces and where shallow DOF is actually needed, they have a place. Otherwise - for me - it's like using a toy instead of a tool.
 
The toy now is the new tool.... at the price point for a T2i if you don't want to spring for a 7D.. there is no reason you should not have one in your kit...

I'm actually enjoying going back 30 years and doing similar things but now with video...

http://vimeo.com/11978670

The 300 looks and feels good but in reality the 7D can get a better shot in most cases...

It's just where it's all going...

I'm in the game... I advise everybody to get one and have some fun....

As I've said before... it will only get better and cheaper...

It's not about the tools anymore...

Cheers..
 
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