HPX170 vs PD170

Hello,

I've got some questions about the hmc especially to Barry and Jan.


Barry told us that this camera works great in the 720 mode. But I didn't understand exactly if he meant only the 24p and 25p mode.
So, what about the 720/50p mode I prefer to use. Are compression artefactes an issue in this mode? What about the color precision in low light situations, for example a music stage (concert) with their lights filmed at night?

And last - but not least: I read about the pana 32gb card, that the max. data speed is limited with 20MB/sec., so how does it work to use the card in the 21MB perm/24MB max./sec. best quality mode?

The hpx offers big benefits with 4:2:2 color reduction in the SD(!) MODE! But what about the 720p/50p HD Mode, is the hpx in this case really better by doing color reduction or - more or less - equal to the 4:2:0 mode of the hmc? (In view to color correction and compositing)

I preorderd the hpx171 but still thinking about to switch to the hmc, because the p2 price policy of pana makes me angry. Sorry, Jan, but I really think that there is no real argument for those high prices in the end of the year 2008 anymore.

I am looking forward to get some answers from you!

Jurgen
 
Barry_Green said:
There is no conceivable circumstance where a PD170 could produce an image superior to an HPX170. None...

...there is no conceivable imaginable circumstance where a PD170 could be considered in any way equal to or superior to what an HPX170 could do.
Click to expand...

rofl... it is nice to get to those points when we can feel certain we have come this far... not too long ago it was all about the DVX. Oh, how time flies! :)
 
MediaMovie said:
because the p2 price policy of pana makes me angry. Sorry, Jan, but I really think that there is no real argument for those high prices in the end of the year 2008 anymore.
Click to expand...

27 months ago, a 8 GB p2 card cost us $1500.00. Today, you can get 4x times that capacity for the same price.

And, a 16 GB card is bundled with US delivered HPX170s.

Your argument seems lacking sufficient foundation.
 
I have to agree with MediaMovie.

Sure prices have come down, but they are still high for the time one can get for that $1,500

At 1080p resolutions or 720p60 that would get you around 30 min of footage for $1,500.

This is only practical for studio or controlled shoots.

How much would one have to spend to shoot a wedding or a live show? $6,000, $10,000?

Remember we are talking about flash memory here.

Even though P2 is RAIDed, cream of the crop memory, it is still flash memory.

32gig CF cards are going for $100 these days.

I know it is a great system and it users love it, but the pricing does seem out of alignment with other memory on the market.
 
The comparison between CF cards and p2 cards doesn't work for me.

Totally different end product altogether.

If you need to capture weddings, then p2 probably isn't the best choice.
 
MediaMovie said:
And last - but not least: I read about the pana 32gb card, that the max. data speed is limited with 20MB/sec., so how does it work to use the card in the 21MB perm/24MB max./sec. best quality mode?
Click to expand...

It's not 21/24 MB(ytes)ps, it's 21/24mb(its)ps.

That is around 3 MB(ytes)ps.
 

Nice to meet people with humor here. ;-)

I don't like to play that game which Pana likes to play with us.
I think, the flash nano recorder is a good economy solution.
At first not cheap, I know, but later it gives you freedom to release out of the price stranglehold of P2 and as an benefit - it offers more quality as P2.

I am suspensed ...
 
economy solution
Click to expand...

this aint an "economy" game. video has always been a relatively costly endeavour. if something feels overly expensive, maybe its YOUR pricing model that out of whack and NOT the manufacturers?

if i hear one more wedding/event shooter crying about p2 cost im gonna explode. its like a ferrari owner bitching that his spider doesnt have a trailer hitch
 
wgzn said:
this aint an "economy" game. video has always been a relatively costly endeavour. if something feels overly expensive, maybe its YOUR pricing model that out of whack and NOT the manufacturers?

if i hear one more wedding/event shooter crying about p2 cost im gonna explode. its like a ferrari owner bitching that his spider doesnt have a trailer hitch
Click to expand...

Well, it goes both ways.

Are you calling a $5,000 HPX-170 a Ferrari?

I guess you are going to vouch for all of the other peoples' customers that will be so happy to pay double for the same service just for HD, when so may can't tell the difference?

Oh, I forgot that unless I am happy to buy $10,000+ worth of recording media per camera, my work is not worthy of the P2 system...

Not everybody is a "filmmaker" with only short takes.

I can't understand how people can be so happy to defend spending so much money on a part of the business which was hardly factored into quotes.
 
pay double for the same service just for HD
Click to expand...
whoever said that an HVX shoot costs double what a PD shoot does?

unless I am happy to buy $10,000+ worth of recording media per camera, my work is not worthy of the P2 system...
Click to expand...
$10,000 of p2 cards? that's ludicrous! if you need to run uninterupted for that long - P2 simply aint the tool for the job. i dont understand why its sooo hard for some people to get their head around that? if you are documenting a long event, and NEED HD, you have several options:
- shoot direct to a computer or firestore
- use two cameras and pull cards from one while the other covers
- rent an HDX900 and shoot to tape
- or if budget is a concern just use an HDV camera

a good part of this business is more than just end product and what that end product cost. its about selling and about perception. both of the end product and of your client by their competitors.
wedding clients, motivational speakers and presenters of business seminars may not be able to tell the difference or even care - but many customers do. and you cant justify being pissy simply because your customers dont or youre not able to sell it.

IMO, the whole goal of the HVX/HPX line is to put "HD" within reach of more people - but not of ALL people at the cost of profit margins. panasonic makes money, we make money, everyone wins.

and my ferrari simile was an attempt at hyperbole. misguided maybe? but i have indeed seen a bmw with a trailer hitch
 
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Bassman, I agree 100% to you.

The HPX isn't a Ferrari and the P2 cards with the DVCPro-Codec are not a Ferrari, (maybe the middlefield in the codec quality range) so why shall we pay a Ferrari price? If money doesn't matters and you like to pay to much for an issue - congratulations, I can't and I don't want to say the same for my person!

There are different points of view here in this community and exactly this makes it interesting to communicate, but please don't let us look down to anotherone only why he seess things out of a different angle. You can like a good quality also in the case that you are a wedding filmer, why not?

I do make very different jobs. Short industrial shots and also event reports, so it is important for me to be flexible. So I repeat what I said: I am very suspensed what the Flashnano recorder will bring to us.

Please also note: In Germany are the P2-cards more expensive as in the states and you can't buy the new HPX170/171 as an bundle. Now you will say: Yes I know, but you have instead of the possibilty to switch between PAL and SECAM, but this feature I do not need. I would rather take a free 16 GB-card!

Best wishes

Jurgen
 
Edit:
5 minutes ago I took a telephone call with my local dealer asking him for the price of a 64 GB P2 card.

The price is: 3.172,87 US-Dollar EXKL. VAT! Hello, ... hello, can anybody hear me ...?

Now set this in relationship to the Flashnano recorder which offers more quality by using cheap memory cards.

Maybe some folks of you now better understand what I am talking about.
 
MediaMovie said:
Edit:
5 minutes ago I took a telephone call with my local dealer asking him for the price of a 64 GB P2 card.

The price is: 3.172,87 US-Dollar EXKL. VAT! Hello, ... hello, can anybody hear me ...?

Now set this in relationship to the Flashnano recorder which offers more quality by using cheap memory cards.

Maybe some folks of you now better understand what I am talking about.
Click to expand...

With P2 Cards there´s no reason for you to buy in Germany:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/shop/10851/P2_Memory_Cards.html
Add 75$ for express shipping and you probably get it as fast as from a local dealer...

BTW without stressing conspiracy theories: the HVX came for selling P2 not vice versa.
The HVX was an amazing little cam, giving you the real deal in a small formfactor.
The price for that never was the price for the cam itself, but the price for buying into Panasonics professional digital solidstate recording media, you name it: "P2"
If you buy a HPX2000/3000, the price you pay for P2 becomes marginal...

And now what´s that "flashnano recorder" you where talking about?
 
wgzn said:
whoever said that an HVX shoot costs double what a PD shoot does?

$10,000 of p2 cards? that's ludicrous! if you need to run uninterupted for that long - P2 simply aint the tool for the job. i dont understand why its sooo hard for some people to get their head around that? if you are documenting a long event, and NEED HD, you have several options:
- shoot direct to a computer or firestore
- use two cameras and pull cards from one while the other covers
- rent an HDX900 and shoot to tape
- or if budget is a concern just use an HDV camera

a good part of this business is more than just end product and what that end product cost. its about selling and about perception. both of the end product and of your client by their competitors.
wedding clients, motivational speakers and presenters of business seminars may not be able to tell the difference or even care - but many customers do. and you cant justify being pissy simply because your customers dont or youre not able to sell it.
Click to expand...

Somehow this thread was morphed into a PD-170 thread, I was replying to a HMC-150 vs HPX-170 thread.

But anyway, Spartacus & WZGN, I think your arguments actually prove my overall point - that the P2 system has left what I do in the dust, therefore it is tough to justify buying the Panasonic line.

Panasonic is in business to sell cameras and they have made it quite difficult for me to upgrade my Panasonic cameras to HD.

$10,000 for media is ludicrous, but that will only get you 3 hours of recording time @ 720p60 per camera. What if your event lasts four hours and you do not have time to offload cards?

Sure you could say "then don't buy the camera and quit whining"

But I don't think Panasonic is in the business of alienating customers, at least I am not.

And a P2 shoot has to cost double compared to an SD shoot in order to justify the cost, isn't that what is being preached?

So many contradictions.

The SD card model and the Nanon Flash are the only things keeping me with Panasonic right now.
 
Bassman2003 said:
Somehow this thread was morphed into a PD-170 thread, I was replying to a HMC-150 vs HPX-170 thread.
Click to expand...
The thread title is "HPX170 vs PD170"...:beer:

I don´t think Pana wants to alienate anyone, but P2 simply is the same recording media their professional line uses, with camera prices 10 to 15 times the price of a HVX200.
And you get the same codec like the big guns, DVCproHD (and 50).
And this for far under 10k.

You do weddings and events, welcome to HDV, totally legit format for this field of work.
If your clients are techies and especially ask for 4:2:2 sampling and mild compression, go P2 and charge accordingly...

I still hope Canon will stir up the market with their new generation cameras, but they will have to bring A LOT to make me jump over...
 
bassman, i cant figure out why youre having so much trouble understanding things - and im sorry to be picking on you. youre just the person on stage at the moment ; )

where the heck are you getting $10,000 for p2cards? i get that you are just matching card capacity to projected run time - but thats a very unrealistic situation. NOBODY WOULD DO THAT. anyone shooting a longform project would either have multicameras, shoot to drives or firestore - or just shoot to tape. its not the fault of panasonic or p2 platform that its not cost-effective for longform. BUT, it wasnt supposed to be. thats not its design.

And a P2 shoot has to cost double compared to an SD shoot in order to justify the cost
Click to expand...
NO, it absolutely does not! there are other issues that help to justify the P2 price. i no longer have to log and capture in realtime. the time saved there in ONE PROJECT often pays for the price of a P2 card. and multiply that over several projects and it becomes actually profitable - with no increase in price to my clients.

bassman, the problem that i think you (and the others sharing your argument) are having is youre only seeing as far as your wallet. yes, the P2 buy-in for someone used to shooting on $10 dv tape seems steep. but when you factor it into the big picture, its not such a big deal.

and again, i cant stress enough. THE P2 WORKFLOW WASNT DESIGNED FOR EXTREME LONGFORM WORK.
 
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... Somehow this thread was morphed into a PD-170 thread, I was replying to a HMC-150 vs HPX-170 thread ...

The same happens to me. I was shure to post in the "HMC150 vs. HPC170" thread and now I am a little surprised to find myself in this thread. Maybe I'm getting old... ;-)

To Spartacus:
http://www.convergent-design.com/index.html

All foregoing arguments about the relationships between hardware and P2 cards in the upper product line are right. Nothing to say against it. But Pana took with the HVX/HPX170 a new clientele in their visier. This cameras were definitly not maid for high budget productions (excepting as an b-camera). Rather this cameras were maid to get new customers in the semi profi and lower professionel line. And so I think it is logical to offer this clientele payable solutions for working with P2. Who says "A" also have to say "B" to make a thing round.
That's MY oppinion!

And please not again, that much kollegs not only fixed in ONE special field of production.
I am doing versatile jobs and I like to do it with best possible quality, even if the job is "only" a event or a wedding to fill the summer hole.

I've thought, Pana will bring the prices of P2-cards a little down with the appearing of the 64GB card, but they didn't. The firestore fs-100 I don't like, so let's see what the Flashnano recorder will bring to us ...
 
and let's go on record here. nobody is slamming wedding/event shooters. thats one hell of a profitable and very legit business. but sadly they get caught up in this part of the discussion. and it seems that shooting HDV to tape is their only reasonable "budget HD" option.
 
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