HPX170 First Look
- Thread starter Barry_Green
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Barry_Green
Moderator
Not 100% certain. As I said before, I gotta test 'em side by side to know for sure.
Barry_Green
Moderator
On the HPX500 it has a crosshair on the screen that tells you the area that you're focusing in on.
On the 170, I don't know if it has that or not. The way they had this particular 170 configured, all three focus assists were on simultaneously. They told me that you can pick and choose; if you chose only the histogram, I'd bet there's a crosshair that comes up. (We couldn't see it because if it's there, it's under the magnified window).
Even so, it seems like it's measuring focus in the area in the dead center of the screen.
Barry_Green
Moderator
The two hints I got were "priced comparable to the HVX200A" and "slightly less than the HVX200". My interpretation on that is that the MSRP will probably be somewhere around $5795 or even down to $5500. Street price should be a couple hundred less than the HVX200A's street price, accordingly.
Barry_Green
Moderator
There are lots of articles you can google for, but I'll do a detailed waveform article sometime soon (with "soon" meaning when I can get to it and hopefully before the 170/150 hit the shelves!) :thumbsup:
Barry_Green
Moderator
Er, well, yes it's assumed, but it can't really be anything else. It's 19-bit internal processing, uncompressed, that is converted to analog and output on the component port of the HVX200. It would be unfathomable to think that they would then compress it and then uncompress it before outputting it on the HD-SDI port...
Now, I guess they could somehow downsample to 8-bit and then pad it back up to 10-bit before outputting it, but... why? It's all processed in 19-bit as is. And HD-SDI demands 10 bits. The EX1 puts out 10 bits. The XLH1 puts out 8 bits, with two "padding" bits, so I guess there's a chance the 170 does so as well, but it just doesn't seem logical.
Oh well, I'll test it when I can and report back.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Well, not really. It's sort of like halfway to Hydra.
Hydra gave us the potential of unlocking 1080P or even 2K at up to 60fps. That would be amazing. And HD-SDI won't do that.
But, on the other hand, Hydra was giving us uncompressed 10-bit video, and HD-SDI will be giving us that.*
Prior to this, the HVX gave us 8-bit compressed video out its firewire port, or uncompressed analog video. HD-SDI is uncompressed high-def digital video.
(* = I have to triple-check that it's an actual 10-bit).
Barry_Green
Moderator
Lessen the NEED? Yes. Lessen the desire? No.
Do you NEED an external monitor? I'd argue that the HVX200 doesn't NEED one, I've used it for over two years before I finally broke down and bought the monitor. You can focus very well with the HVX's focus assist. But a good external monitor is heavenly. The LH80 pushed me over the edge by offering three major features: pixel-for-pixel, focus-in-red, and a waveform.
Now, the 170 offers two of those three (basically). So yeah, it makes an external monitor a little less mandatory.
Will you still want one? Oh yeah. Will you be able to pry mine away from my cold dead fingers? No way. But do you need one? Well, I'll put it this way: only you can answer that question. I never needed it before, but I sure did want it. I just couldn't find one that I felt like paying for; the Marshall is a mediocre monitor, and the others just didn't offer anything compelling. But now, I've got it and I'm not looking back.
But I wouldn't tell any budget-strapped indie that they needed it. Yes it'll make your life so much easier, the bigger screen is so nice to work with, the pixel-for-pixel is simply delightful, etc. But I can pull focus on an HVX200 very well even without the monitor, and if you take the time and the effort, you can too.
I'm quoting retail. $2700 + $650 for the SDI option; street price is of course much less ($2100 for the monitor itself, etc). You don't have to get the SDI option; I got it because I was foolishly thinking I'd use the monitor with my Red. Now, seeing that the 170 has HD-SDI, I'm glad I got the SDI option. But for a 170 or 150 or 200A you wouldn't need the SDI option. You might prefer it, but you wouldn't need it.
All of the above. It uses the same external ports as the 200 and 200A and 100B and 150.
I haven't put them side by side, so I can't say for sure. But based on the numbers I ran before, I think it's entirely possible that the 170 will match the EX1 for sensitivity (in 1080P mode) and will come a lot closer to matching it in noise performance. In 1080i mode the EX1 will be about a stop more sensitive. In sharpness there's no difference that I could find between a 200A and a 200, and the 170 uses the same chips, so I'm not expecting it to be any sharper, which means the EX1 would still hold a noticeable advantage in sharpness. The 170 will close the gap (or eliminate it) in sensitivity, noise, and smear performance. The EX1 will maintain its edge in sharpness. But the 170 even widens the gap in price difference, it should probably street at $1500 to $1800 less than the EX1.
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Barry_Green
Moderator
My bet is a street price of $4999 from day one. If the HVX200 has an MSRP of $5999 and a street of $5200, and the 170 has an MSRP of $5795 (my guess), then the street should be about $200 less, so $4999. But, as you say, we'll see.
Barry_Green
Moderator
I begged for this. It's probably not possible. The waveform on the 170 takes up probably 80% of the screen. It's luscious and smooth and big enough to be useful, but accordingly it dominates the screen. So what I asked for is: can we have the waveform on the LCD, and the full frame image on the viewfinder? That would be the ultimate ideal situation. But, it's probably not possible to route two different displays like that.
So, in a case like that, no -- it's either picture, or waveform. They can do both on the monitors because the waveform takes up a little corner of the screen, but on the LCD it takes up most nearly all the screen.
You can, of course, have waveform and picture simultaneously if you have any sort of external monitor, because the waveform doesn't get overlayed on the output video signal.
It'll have peaking, but so far I don't think they're going to give it colored peaking. I howled and protested, but I don't know if I got heard. Colored peaking is sweet; Sony and JVC do it, and Red now does it, so I'm certainly hoping they'll implement it on the 170.
Near as I can tell it's the dead-center area of the screen that's being sampled for the graphs.
Yet. I haven't given up on that one. It's probably a done deal that it'll be the same LCD panel, but there were some bleeding eardrums around the Panasonic booth when I got done explaining to them just how much we want an upgraded LCD! :evil:
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Barry_Green
Moderator
It appears to be graphically overlaid on top of the display. So it's a big graphic.
Not likely; I tried it and it didn't show up. I asked if we could get that as an option (as well as the focus assists). There's a big language barrier between me and the person I was asking, of course, as he was direct from the factory in Japan and doing his best to speak English (and I very much appreciate him making the effort to communicate in my language, as I couldn't possibly even attempt to communicate in his) but I don't know if I was all that successful in explaining what I was asking for on some of these things.
Looks like I have to go ebay me some Rosetta Stone Japanese...
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Leo Versola
Well-known member
Great info, thanks Barry... I should've also stated that I'd be using a 35mm adapter which most of us find makes it very difficult to pull focus accurately without focusing aids, especially when squinting at a tiny screen and any kind of tracking is involved. I've tried 'lesser' external monitors with mediocre results, maybe a tad better than I got with my cam's stock LCD. As usual, you pay for what you get.
I agree with your assessment on the added value of the Panny monitor; do I WANT one? Absolutely. But do I NEED one when focus-in-red and size are the only factors to consider? You're right again; one has to answer that for themselves and easier, faster, bigger, better have always sounded good in my book and thus I'll proceed accordingly...[wince] Besides, it will become a necessity when I eventually get around to adding a jib to my rigging.
I agree with your assessment on the added value of the Panny monitor; do I WANT one? Absolutely. But do I NEED one when focus-in-red and size are the only factors to consider? You're right again; one has to answer that for themselves and easier, faster, bigger, better have always sounded good in my book and thus I'll proceed accordingly...[wince] Besides, it will become a necessity when I eventually get around to adding a jib to my rigging.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Yep, a jib changes everything from "want" to "need".
Leo Versola
Well-known member
Looks like I have to go ebay me some Rosetta Stone Japanese...
OFF-TOPIC:
Nihongo ga, wakarimas ka?
FWIW, I use both Rosetta Stone and Pimsleur for a few different languages, including Japanese, and find that Pimsleur works better (for me at least)... I commute an hour each way to work and sneak in an hour or two of audio training in each day this way. You'd be surprised how fast you can pick things up...
It appears to be graphically overlaid on top of the display. So it's a big graphic.
Not likely; I tried it and it didn't show up. I asked if we could get that as an option (as well as the focus assists). There's a big language barrier between me and the person I was asking, of course, as he was direct from the factory in Japan and doing his best to speak English (and I very much appreciate him making the effort to communicate in my language, as I couldn't possibly even attempt to communicate in his) but I don't know if I was all that successful in explaining what I was asking for on some of these things.
Looks like I have to go ebay me some Rosetta Stone Japanese...
That would actually be a very sick feature to have. Feeding Waveform out to a larger monitor, me would love.
That Rosetta Stone dude is making a FORTUNE I tell you.
Cees Mutsaers
Veteran
where did the speaker of the HVX200 go in the 170 ?
Mark Williams
Veteran
Barry,
Thanks for volunteering the waveform use article. I realize it might be a while . For those of us that are unfamilar with its use it would great to have a step by step on the HPX170.
Thanks for volunteering the waveform use article. I realize it might be a while . For those of us that are unfamilar with its use it would great to have a step by step on the HPX170.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Um... don't remember. I think it goes on the top of the barrel right in front of the "snorkel" (in other words, where the menu buttons were on the 200).
Barry_Green
Moderator
I asked for that, but it looks like the answer is no. The same display gets routed to both LCD and viewfinder. The only differences are the LCD flip or B&W, because those are functions of the LCD panel and not functions of the graphics processor. The same graphics image gets sent to both.
However, you could have WF or VS on the camera displays, and standard view on an external monitor.
However, you could have WF or VS on the camera displays, and standard view on an external monitor.