How to use a recorder, and then what?

[olindacat]

I don't know why i keep thinking SD is the only good recorder.... Just reading BH review of the Tascams and am ugh, perplexed....

 

[ugafan]

i would advise against getting any new equipment right now. a $200-$300 audio recorder is a completely different product than a $3400 video recorder. it's like asking if you should go with the toyota corolla or the ford super duty. the last thing you want is to impulsively buy something and then realize it's not right for the job. if i were you i would focus on improving technique and hold off on buying until you have a budget and know exactly what you want.

 

[olindacat]

i would advise against getting any new equipment right now. a $200-$300 audio recorder is a completely different product than a $3400 video recorder. it's like asking if you should go with the toyota corolla or the ford super duty. the last thing you want is to impulsively buy something and then realize it's not right for the job. if i were you i would focus on improving technique and hold off on buying until you have a budget and know exactly what you want.

Thanks ugafan. I do need something and I have already gotten two great suggestions from two people I really value immensely, so I'll get the used Tascam and make the best of it. Thanks for chilling me out

 

[Alex H.]

My first intended venture was to be a DVX Fest. One of the Horror films. I thought that would be a good way to learn. Several years ago my wife and I actually worked on it. But, we were also working 14-8/7/365 trying to monetize the web and our print content digitally, so we have been working harder for less these past 10 years. That took away our time to devote to the first try. We never gave up hope, and when we do episodes of dagameshow.com, we try to do this or that, but the end product is a pretty messy hodge lodge. We make no excuses. It has a small fan base that gets some laughs and that is it.

Consider this: accepting that it's community-access-level production and writing it off as "it's going to messy" because of that doesn't help you hone your skills. Take each and every project you have as if it is your career-maker. Treat it as a professional production. Who cares if it's destined just for a small audience on a website? Or if it's "only" for YouTube? Make it count!

I watched parts of a couple of episodes. First and foremost, the sound is suffering from way too much distortion. This is where gain staging comes in.

With any wireless system (which system do you have, by the way?), there are generally two different places to adjust gain: the transmitter, and the receiver. These are the first two stages of gain. The third is the input of the mixer or recorder: whichever device the wireless receiver is feeding directly. If it's a mixer, there may be both an input gain setting and an output level control, after which the recorder or camera will have its own input level setting. Each one of these is a gain stage, and each one must be carefully set to maximize the S/N ratio while leaving enough headroom to avoid distortion. If you have four stages of gain in your signal chain, and the signal gets distorted in the first one, it doesn't matter what the meters say downstream; the distortion is there to stay.

There's also a big wind problem. Some Rycote Overcovers will help, or some furry windjammers made for lavs.

When I am told I can't do something I fight it, but let me say that after Marie and I tried to shoot our little DVX hoarfrost we got a very good smack in the face. So, we cut way back in terms of our own expectations and have tried to bang out 30-minute shows to get used to the entire workflow, from concept to delivery. Granted it is crap. But, we now have had years of paying out dues on a l=very low level and just want to improve. We have no delusions. We know what we make will be laughable. But at least we aren't sitting on our asses complaining about how tough life is ;-)

So you understand that this is a large undertaking, and expectations should be kept to realistic and reasonable levels. But if you make something, and it turns out to be ridiculously bad, at least you made something... and learned (hopefully) from the experience. Figure out why is was so awful, and then figure out how to avoid that on the next one. Make another. Still not great? Well, did you make the same mistakes as last time? Probably a couple (some of this is requires more than one failure to learn), but you probably made some different mistakes. Rinse, repeat. Each new project will be better than the last, and will offer its own learning experience.

Starting off with shorts is a great way to go. Vimeo's "Weekend Challenge" series is a good place to start, simply for honing some basic skills. And it looks like there may be a new DVX fest coming up. Make something, and then make something else. And then something else...

I regret this post.

Why? So it got off to a rocky start. You weren't asking the right questions, but I think we've gotten around to that part now.

I love sound, and on Maui, we have bird and animals and noises of all kinds. Inside the crater, it is surreal. I was hoping I might be able to include that somehow an will follow your guidance.

One thing I will say is that you might want to look seriously at adding a small, handheld recorder to your kit. Look at the TASCAM DR-22WL. And get a furry windscreen for it (I believe Redhead Windscreens is based in HI). These little devices are easy to carry anywhere, any time, and to have ready at a moment's notice should you find yourself in an environment with a really cool sound. Grab your recorder and headphones, and record! I carry mine with me when I travel and snag ambient sound beds wherever I can... airplanes, taxi cabs, subways, forests, lakes, boats...

It doesn't have to be for a specific project. Really, it just builds your own sound library that's there when you need it.

You are the second person who told me to go Tascam and that is all I need to hear. Done. i'll have one in week.

My reasons are more technical at this point. As I said, it's about metering, monitoring, and control (and better pre-amps than what your DSLR can ever hope to offer). It doesn't matter WHAT you record to if the mic isn't applied properly. Whether the TASCAM devices are actually right for you, well, that needs to be discerned before you pull the trigger on ordering one. There are other fine recorders out there for the budget-conscious, but the first determination is need.

Right. Re: "smooth out dialog edits" what does that mean?

Every scene with dialog has natural room tone running throughout. This is the constant noise floor of the room or outdoor location (air, refrigerator hum, wind, flowing water, traffic). Now, you want to eliminate as many things as you can during production so that you record dialog and only dialog, but there will always be some form of room tone running behind the dialog.

When editing dialog, if you cut two lines together and that noise floor disappears for a moment, it is noticeable. So, by recording room tone at the end of a scene, you have a chunk of that sound from which to clip a little bit for filling that gap.

These numbers are so very helpful thanks Alex. I have two Genelec monitors. Years ago, in this exact forum, I spent a lot of time cobbling together an editing bay, with advice given, but could not afford the rent and am now starting from scratch, probably making my editing bay in my bedroom. I will cover the walls and ceiling and floor and try to make a good sound room with what I have.

Again, the numbers are really just spitballing. Please do not use them to drive your mix as a hard and fast rule. The first and most important step is to get your room properly setup and treated, and acoustic treatment doesn't necessarily mean covering your entire room, floor to cieling. Some absorption on the wall behind your desk and monitors, and some bass traps in the corners, plus a patch of absorption just about anywhere that may cause reflections in the mixing position. Check THESE webisodes on YouTube to see what simple things can be done to create a better mixing environment.

Once your room is treated, set your monitors to a decent mix level. While proper mix stages may be set to 85dB SPL, a small room like that is better off setting to 79dB SPL. That means running pink noise through each speaker and using an SPL meter (acoustic sound pressure level) to make sure that you have the nominal level coming from that speaker at the mix position. Once you're there, trust your ears to make the mix. The meters are all well and good, and are quite helpful (especially to see that nothing is hitting red), but mix by ear more than by meter.

 

[olindacat]

Consider this: accepting that it's community-access-level production and writing it off as "it's going to messy" because of that doesn't help you hone your skills. Take each and every project you have as if it is your career-maker. Treat it as a professional production. Who cares if it's destined just for a small audience on a website? Or if it's "only" for YouTube? Make it count!

We really wanted to be able to do that with Da Game. That was our original goal. Our volunteer talent doesn't care much to listen to me or if my camera stops, the recorder stops, whatever... he just keeps going. When I get home after a 'shoot' and try to cobble it all together, it is an impossibility. After about episode 10 we realized there was nothing we could do but try to keep things rolling, and run after him wherever who goes, yelling one second, talking calmly the next. I try 'riding' the controls on my Riggy and it is hit or miss.

I watched parts of a couple of episodes. First and foremost, the sound is suffering from way too much distortion. This is where gain staging comes in.

This is very helpful. I know I don't know anything about this. Is this gain 'structure'?

With any wireless system (which system do you have, by the way?),

G3s x 2

each one must be carefully set to maximize the S/N ratio while leaving enough headroom to avoid distortion. If you have four stages of gain in your signal chain, and the signal gets distorted in the first one, it doesn't matter what the meters say downstream; the distortion is there to stay.

This is where I get lost. I have seen the levels on the transmitter, maybe I noticed them on the receiver, but I did not realize these were more important than the Riggy or mixer. I have always set them and the camera to the middle, e.g. 5 on a scale of 1-10, then used the Riggy or Beachtek to control. So, I am just guessing where to have the camera and transmitter/receiver levels. If he goes to the handheld, then I try to adjust the Riggy on that channel to lower his yelling so it doesn't clip. I have to adjust both channels as the interviewee isn't yelling, but he always is, so I have a lot of busy work going on to try and get what you hear, while handling the camera (which exaggerate the OMB dilemma, and I have no problem with that as I have improved, as bad as it looks). If you have any tips on how to control things better, I would love to manage this better as it is truly a challenge. Probably not unlike what many here deal with in reality shows?

There's also a big wind problem. Some Rycote Overcovers will help, or some furry windjammers made for lavs.

I try to move him so his body blocks the wind. I will get a couple of these. I figured I'd be done with this show long ago, but I know it is something he loves to do so I just hang in there for him. He's a good guy but was a big shot on the mainland and gets a little carried away. He listens to me, but when he gets rolling he is like a bull, no stopping him unfortunately.

So you understand that this is a large undertaking, and expectations should be kept to realistic and reasonable levels. But if you make something, and it turns out to be ridiculously bad, at least you made something... and learned (hopefully) from the experience. Figure out why is was so awful, and then figure out how to avoid that on the next one. Make another. Still not great? Well, did you make the same mistakes as last time? Probably a couple (some of this is requires more than one failure to learn), but you probably made some different mistakes. Rinse, repeat. Each new project will be better than the last, and will offer its own learning experience.

The 'mistake' with Da Game is lack of control. I know this but the situation is what it is. I do think your advice on controlling the levels and the gain or structure is a definite thing I CAN control, and want to learn how to do this well. Also the furry things. (Guy on Maui is a Hellava biker BTW).

Starting off with shorts is a great way to go. Vimeo's "Weekend Challenge" series is a good place to start, simply for honing some basic skills. And it looks like there may be a new DVX fest coming up. Make something, and then make something else. And then something else...

Now you're talking Alex!!! I certainly want to improve Da Game but with Marie and I working with a few friends or people we can find who are seriously trying to master the craft of acting, then we think we can do much better as my assumption is it is largely about controlling the environment, picking your battles so your odds of success are better, that means talent as well as location as well as gear as well as who you use and set-up that gear. (Is this making sense?)

One thing I will say is that you might want to look seriously at adding a small, handheld recorder to your kit. Look at the TASCAM DR-22WL. And get a furry windscreen for it (I believe Redhead Windscreens is based in HI). These little devices are easy to carry anywhere, any time, and to have ready at a moment's notice should you find yourself in an environment with a really cool sound. Grab your recorder and headphones, and record! I carry mine with me when I travel and snag ambient sound beds wherever I can... airplanes, taxi cabs, subways, forests, lakes, boats...

Okay. Sound advice ;-)

and better pre-amps than what your DSLR can ever hope to offer). It doesn't matter WHAT you record to if the mic isn't applied properly. Whether the TASCAM devices are actually right for you, well, that needs to be discerned before you pull the trigger on ordering one. There are other fine recorders out there for the budget-conscious, but the first determination is need.

I am camera-less, recorder-less, so out of business at the moment. As I am not getting younger I obviously have a desire to get set up again but don't want to step in s--- making more foolish mistakes. I had Nikon gear. I have a room full of video-related equipment, but no audio or video recorder. Most of my glass is gone. I am following your comments and those of others regarding the Tascam 70 and it seems there are many good things about it, as well as issues regarding the 3.5mm out to the camera. I don't know how TC works, what jamming is, but if I cold avoid Plural Eyes I think the money is well spent having timecode somehow, but no nothing about how it works, like does a 'time code' appear in a Premiere 'time line'? Also, the HP monitoring issues as I think I am reading that the 70s HP am is only 20 (something, not sure what the power measurement is). Richard and Grantly and Old Corpose all talk about MixPre or SD preamps "in front" of the Tascam, which really confuses me as do they negative the res in the 70, do they confuse things more, is that another adjustment to dial in? Audio is bloody tricky business. Very upsetting.

When editing dialog, if you cut two lines together and that noise floor disappears for a moment, it is noticeable. So, by recording room tone at the end of a scene, you have a chunk of that sound from which to clip a little bit for filling that gap.

That is worth its weight in gold. Thanks. I never knew to listen for that, sort of an audio jump cut or something but I get it.

Again, the numbers are really just spitballing. Please do not use them to drive your mix as a hard and fast rule.

Just having some kind of benchmark to start from is huge. Thank you.

The first and most important step is to get your room properly setup and treated, and acoustic treatment doesn't necessarily mean covering your entire room, floor to cieling. Some absorption on the wall behind your desk and monitors, and some bass traps in the corners, plus a patch of absorption just about anywhere that may cause reflections in the mixing position. Check THESE webisodes on YouTube to see what simple things can be done to create a better mixing environment.

Once your room is treated, set your monitors to a decent mix level. While proper mix stages may be set to 85dB SPL, a small room like that is better off setting to 79dB SPL. That means running pink noise through each speaker and using an SPL meter (acoustic sound pressure level) to make sure that you have the nominal level coming from that speaker at the mix position. Once you're there, trust your ears to make the mix. The meters are all well and good, and are quite helpful (especially to see that nothing is hitting red), but mix by ear more than by meter.

Thank you. The Genelecs are in NY and I live in NYC so I need to bring them back. I'll watch the webisodes and when our movies debut, count on getting backstage passes for you and your loved ones, on the house naturally ;-)

 

[olindacat]

BTW: was the dialogue sample I provided of the old man something you were going to advise on? This is more in line with what I am shooting for, only not boxing people up inside a cocoon like I did him. (That was me trying my damnedest to get his voice as clear as I could.)

 

[Amos Kim]

"olindacat has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space."

Sorry. Need to send olindacat a pm about the Nikon.