Barry_Green
Moderator
Or use a mic with a wider pattern, to give you more of a margin of error when they turn...
Indeed.
How to do the pros do it ?
- Thread starter twocik23
- Start date
Gohanto
Veteran
Places omni in the center of the room on stand. Perfect no matter where they turn :tongue:
El Director
Veteran
I ADR the entire film. As a low budget director, I'd rather spend my set time on camera and performance, then take care of the audio later. It's just easier and sounds better than most indie flicks.
Rippie
Veteran
While thats obviously one way to go, how can you possibly say its "easier"?
Silly statement. So instead of taking the few moments (and crew) to get it right on set (which is done successfully on a daily basis in every the highest of budget and lowest of budget films)
you'd rather try to recapture your actors performance
at a later date.
You'd rather create every ambience of every scene from scratch.
You'd rather have to do intensive Foley .....etc..etc the list continues.
In my opinion this is just silly.
Gohanto
Veteran
Realizing that without sound, you're only creating half a performance, that then needs to be duplicated months later... But everyone's got there own thing.
Cameron Crowe plays music on-set during takes on his films, and that works for him...
El Director
Veteran
I still have the camera audio as reference. It's really not that difficult. It takes four hours with each actor to record and sync. I shoot a lot outdoors, so rather than waiting for planes, cars, or whatever to subside, we just shoot through it and create the sound later. Saves more than a few moments.
twocik23
Veteran
"My biggest question for the OP is why do you want to purchase a sound kit in the first place. I know that DIY and owning all of the gear yourself is very much in vogue these days, but why not budget properly for an experienced production sound crew?"
If you've ever been to Naples, FL there aren't many film/video people here, really wish there was.... I've used the guys we haver around here, but not many... well that know what they're doing.
For a gig with a budget, no problem I'll hire out every time, but we're really only wanting a decent kit for short film purpose. I'm actually trying to get my brother into video/film and he really like audio.
""Quentin is very astute, careful and cognizant of sound at all times. He is one of the rare directors who will actually shoot a take again based solely on sound. Most people would choose to fix something in post production rather than the shoot, not only for audio but for visuals too. But, not Quentin. He'll never ADR the dialog...
Not only will Quentin retake something due to the sound, but when they are setting up the shots he will allow lights and cameras to be moved in order to reduce noises on the set. For example, he may say 'No you cannot use that light because it is humming too much.'""
That is because he's an artist and not really into it for the money. Very inspiring !
"I still have the camera audio as reference. It's really not that difficult. It takes four hours with each actor to record and sync. I shoot a lot outdoors, so rather than waiting for planes, cars, or whatever to subside, we just shoot through it and create the sound later. Saves more than a few moments."
I understand where he's coming from and everyone has their own thing, but that might seem like alot of work for someone that normally doesn't do this, but for someone that does, they might be extremely fast at it and in the long run will sound great. It's almost like a compositor would break down a scene, not visually but in sound. Having complete control over everything, again this sounds like alot of work.
Have any samples EL ?
If you've ever been to Naples, FL there aren't many film/video people here, really wish there was.... I've used the guys we haver around here, but not many... well that know what they're doing.
For a gig with a budget, no problem I'll hire out every time, but we're really only wanting a decent kit for short film purpose. I'm actually trying to get my brother into video/film and he really like audio.
""Quentin is very astute, careful and cognizant of sound at all times. He is one of the rare directors who will actually shoot a take again based solely on sound. Most people would choose to fix something in post production rather than the shoot, not only for audio but for visuals too. But, not Quentin. He'll never ADR the dialog...
Not only will Quentin retake something due to the sound, but when they are setting up the shots he will allow lights and cameras to be moved in order to reduce noises on the set. For example, he may say 'No you cannot use that light because it is humming too much.'""
That is because he's an artist and not really into it for the money. Very inspiring !
"I still have the camera audio as reference. It's really not that difficult. It takes four hours with each actor to record and sync. I shoot a lot outdoors, so rather than waiting for planes, cars, or whatever to subside, we just shoot through it and create the sound later. Saves more than a few moments."
I understand where he's coming from and everyone has their own thing, but that might seem like alot of work for someone that normally doesn't do this, but for someone that does, they might be extremely fast at it and in the long run will sound great. It's almost like a compositor would break down a scene, not visually but in sound. Having complete control over everything, again this sounds like alot of work.
Have any samples EL ?
j1clark@ucsd.edu
Veteran
Hey, if it was good enough for Ed Wood, and Ted Mikels, it should be good enough for the modern independent...
Rippie
Veteran
I dont think anyone would say what he is doing is wrong, because its not
but easier?
He says it takes 4 hours per actor. (which is way faster than the pro's do it)
So say he has 2 to 4 actors there is 8-16 hours, then the hours creating
the ambiences..etc..etc.
Now how could waiting for a plane to pass be so much worse?
To make the decision to adr an entire film for creative reasons is one thing
but to try to fool yourself into believing its that when in reality its
laziness, lack of help/tools or knowledge is another.
No offence meant, and its obviously just my opinion.
El Director
Veteran
The waiting for planes and such is only part of it. Since ADR is almost inevitable, we opted to purchase post sound gear, instead of production gear. For no budget work, we found this is the best way to go for quality, money and time. And it's easier in that when you don't have the money to pay for a crew, it's one less department to worry about on set. No need to worry about boom shadows or dipping, and no need to worry about if we got good enough levels.
We have the USB mixer plugged into the computer and we capture the audio straight to the timeline. I'm using Vegas, so audio is one of it's strengths. We sync it via the waveforms, so the actor doesn't have to try to match it to their lips.
I'll try to get a clip uploaded within the next day or two for you guys.
We have the USB mixer plugged into the computer and we capture the audio straight to the timeline. I'm using Vegas, so audio is one of it's strengths. We sync it via the waveforms, so the actor doesn't have to try to match it to their lips.
I'll try to get a clip uploaded within the next day or two for you guys.
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JordanBlock
Well-known member
I'm sorry, but if "ADR is almost inevitable", you're probably doing something wrong.
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
Well I think it may have to do with his style. You can go to his site and there are a few clips. The part of his comment that doesn't really fit with the OP question is that this is not the way the pro's do it and it isn't getting him the sound the OP was talking about.
Small disclaimer in that this is based on the clips on his site, but he uses very little dialog and uses a lot of music and very little in the way of sound at all. and they were all shot out doors.
So in his case it might be easier. But he's most definitely in the indi sound zone not the "Hollywood" sound zone.
One thing I have discovered over the years is that if you do really good sync on the ADR and do it with a big condenser pretty close you can get a very "vintage Hollywood" sound stage feel. So it is certainly something to be considered if that is what you looking for. But ADR done well is not easier than recording on location. Visa-vie the planes. It's called location scouting. I've spent a fair amount of time in Spokane and the plane issue is not that bad and not an issue at all in many places. There are not that many planes in and out of the airport and it gets shutdown for weather quite a lot. I used to go up around the holidays every year and about 1/2 the time the airport was closed and we had to take a bus from Seattle. If you want to work the way you do go for it but if you have a plane problem then your not picking locations smartly.
mainstreetprod
Veteran
My initial approach to the audio for my feature was to hire the pros, despite the cost. Sound guy # ! had all the right equipment and a long resume experience, but we had a difference of opinion on how close the mic should be. He routinely put the mic 3 feet away from the actor. Once during an exterior shoot, some frogs at a nearby pond started up. I asked him to move the mic closer and he yelled in an irritated sounding voice, "Your still gonna hear the frogs!". Knowing a bit about sound myself, I knew that if the mic were 2 feet closer the actors voice would be way louder than the frogs as opposed to the alternative.
Sound guy #2 was great to work with, but he ran my Mixpre into the camera at mic level, resulting in some hiss. I didn't figure this out until much later and ditched using the Mixpre because of it. I ended up shooting most of the movie with the mic on a boom on a stand , strategically positioned by me, running straight into the camera, monitored sometimes by me and other times by an assistant. When a lot of movement was involved, I used Countryman B3's into some wireless G2's - going straight into the camera. I was quite pleased with most of the audio I got in exterior shoots (using a 4073A shotgun). Interior shoots were more challenging, especiallly when I was unable to turn off the A/C unit. 9 times out of 10 I was able to. One key scene in our flick, the class reunion scene, was shot in a room which turned out to be much more live than I realized at the time. The mics were quite close and I still have no idea why this carpeted room with acoustic ceiling had so much echo.
Overall I got decent sound, considering my lack of crew, and plan to go the extra mile (for a microbudget) and have full post production audio done. Post houses around here are "hungry" and a very impressive one offered to do color and audio at a fraction of the normal 20K plus price. So hopefully that will improve things a bit.
About ADR: It should never be considered inevitable. If nothing else , you can put a G2 on your actors, with the lav encased in some foam to prevent clothing noise, and save yourself countless hours of ADR time later.
Sound guy #2 was great to work with, but he ran my Mixpre into the camera at mic level, resulting in some hiss. I didn't figure this out until much later and ditched using the Mixpre because of it. I ended up shooting most of the movie with the mic on a boom on a stand , strategically positioned by me, running straight into the camera, monitored sometimes by me and other times by an assistant. When a lot of movement was involved, I used Countryman B3's into some wireless G2's - going straight into the camera. I was quite pleased with most of the audio I got in exterior shoots (using a 4073A shotgun). Interior shoots were more challenging, especiallly when I was unable to turn off the A/C unit. 9 times out of 10 I was able to. One key scene in our flick, the class reunion scene, was shot in a room which turned out to be much more live than I realized at the time. The mics were quite close and I still have no idea why this carpeted room with acoustic ceiling had so much echo.
Overall I got decent sound, considering my lack of crew, and plan to go the extra mile (for a microbudget) and have full post production audio done. Post houses around here are "hungry" and a very impressive one offered to do color and audio at a fraction of the normal 20K plus price. So hopefully that will improve things a bit.
About ADR: It should never be considered inevitable. If nothing else , you can put a G2 on your actors, with the lav encased in some foam to prevent clothing noise, and save yourself countless hours of ADR time later.
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Noiz2
Sound Ninja
DJDecay, I wasn't going to post but you really just have way too much wrong info to let it go. Well not exactly wrong but a mishmash of how many different things might be done by different kinds of shows all wrapped up like it's a work flow. For feature film work the post flow in the sticky is pretty spot on.
"How the Pro's do it" is not nec. the gold standard for low budget because how we do it usually involves a lot of people and money and equipment. If you have a lot of those three then your probably not asking advice on DVX User. That said it's sometimes useful to know even if you are not going to do it.
Assuming we are talking about films.
Films do not go to mastering houses. Dialog editors do not as a rule use many plugins. Dialog editors do not create ADR spotting lists, though they are part of the loop. Dialog editors do not create Foley spotting lists. PT doesn't really work "farmed" and a final mix will generally be way over 96 tracks. Faders would be the mix surface or mixer and may or may not have anything to do with the "dubbers" which may or may not be ProTools. Most big stages are probably using dedicated digital boards not a control surface, though this is changing.
Room tone IS room Tone. Ambience is Ambience, they are not at all the same thing. Room tone is supposed to be recorded as a separate take, though often it is better to grab a bit of silence closer to the hole you need to fill.
For "big films" other than those shot on video (traditionally that would be zero, but with the RED that is changing a bit) there is no possibility to record to camera since film cameras don't record sound. A two person production sound crew would be pretty normal but equipment is very variable.
Post isn't all that complicated. Music is not part of audio post, though it is part of the final mix. Strange but true, one (in sound post) rarely hears any of the score before the final mix and the music folks are not under the sound supervisor. You have a Sound Supervisor, Dialog editor(s), FX editor(s), Foley editor(s), ADR editor(s), and sometimes an ADR Supervisor. Foley walkers, and the team that records the Foley. You may have dedicated people to do FX recordings or that may be the editors and assistants. You may have a "Sound designer" but traditionally no unless you have a bif FX laden show. You will have two to three Mixers on the final and they are often also the ones who did the premixes. Not sure about SDDS but Dolby is done in a pass during the final mix. You may also do "versions" of the Final mix for video etc. But there are NO out side mastering houses that play with the audio. There is no "automatic" ADR.
TV shows are probably not very useful as a comparison for feature work since they do it in a fraction of the time with a fraction of the crew. "Young Indy" probably has one of the closest to "Film" post sounds since they were working very hard to match the film and it was done at the same facility.
Having a location mixer (a GOOD one) and an experienced Boom Op. is crucial. But post and production should not be confused they are not the same thing and don't have the same needs. Either can help make up for the deficiencies of the other but both can be totally trashed by lack of competence by the other.
Plugins are useful, the companies you name are fine but only two of a really large number and not nec. the top two. And that is really beside the point. If it's a tool you need to fix something it doesn't matter who makes it but 99.9% of the work is editing and not plugins. Zero crossings, while not a bad concept to know have pretty much nothing to do with the OP and are largely irrelevant today since that is almost always taken care of in some automatic way.
Lastly if you looking for that big budget "Hollywood sound", british anything is the last place to start listening. They have a very different aesthetic and british features have smaller crews than most american TV shows. It's not "bad" and I often prefer it but it is not the "Hollywood sound", it's more of a european sound less "polished" more "natural" (both terms are VERY subjective and not quite accurate since both are polished and neither are natural).
"How the Pro's do it" is not nec. the gold standard for low budget because how we do it usually involves a lot of people and money and equipment. If you have a lot of those three then your probably not asking advice on DVX User. That said it's sometimes useful to know even if you are not going to do it.
Assuming we are talking about films.
Films do not go to mastering houses. Dialog editors do not as a rule use many plugins. Dialog editors do not create ADR spotting lists, though they are part of the loop. Dialog editors do not create Foley spotting lists. PT doesn't really work "farmed" and a final mix will generally be way over 96 tracks. Faders would be the mix surface or mixer and may or may not have anything to do with the "dubbers" which may or may not be ProTools. Most big stages are probably using dedicated digital boards not a control surface, though this is changing.
Room tone IS room Tone. Ambience is Ambience, they are not at all the same thing. Room tone is supposed to be recorded as a separate take, though often it is better to grab a bit of silence closer to the hole you need to fill.
For "big films" other than those shot on video (traditionally that would be zero, but with the RED that is changing a bit) there is no possibility to record to camera since film cameras don't record sound. A two person production sound crew would be pretty normal but equipment is very variable.
Post isn't all that complicated. Music is not part of audio post, though it is part of the final mix. Strange but true, one (in sound post) rarely hears any of the score before the final mix and the music folks are not under the sound supervisor. You have a Sound Supervisor, Dialog editor(s), FX editor(s), Foley editor(s), ADR editor(s), and sometimes an ADR Supervisor. Foley walkers, and the team that records the Foley. You may have dedicated people to do FX recordings or that may be the editors and assistants. You may have a "Sound designer" but traditionally no unless you have a bif FX laden show. You will have two to three Mixers on the final and they are often also the ones who did the premixes. Not sure about SDDS but Dolby is done in a pass during the final mix. You may also do "versions" of the Final mix for video etc. But there are NO out side mastering houses that play with the audio. There is no "automatic" ADR.
TV shows are probably not very useful as a comparison for feature work since they do it in a fraction of the time with a fraction of the crew. "Young Indy" probably has one of the closest to "Film" post sounds since they were working very hard to match the film and it was done at the same facility.
Having a location mixer (a GOOD one) and an experienced Boom Op. is crucial. But post and production should not be confused they are not the same thing and don't have the same needs. Either can help make up for the deficiencies of the other but both can be totally trashed by lack of competence by the other.
Plugins are useful, the companies you name are fine but only two of a really large number and not nec. the top two. And that is really beside the point. If it's a tool you need to fix something it doesn't matter who makes it but 99.9% of the work is editing and not plugins. Zero crossings, while not a bad concept to know have pretty much nothing to do with the OP and are largely irrelevant today since that is almost always taken care of in some automatic way.
Lastly if you looking for that big budget "Hollywood sound", british anything is the last place to start listening. They have a very different aesthetic and british features have smaller crews than most american TV shows. It's not "bad" and I often prefer it but it is not the "Hollywood sound", it's more of a european sound less "polished" more "natural" (both terms are VERY subjective and not quite accurate since both are polished and neither are natural).
El Director
Veteran
Just got done with all the ADR for the film. I'll post some indoor clips as soon as I have it mixed, if anyone still wants to see/hear them. The clips on my site are all with raw camera audio.
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
This is a link to info about their digital cinema services. But to be fair/ clear "Mastering" can be used to mean a lot of different things. Film mixes are not "Mastered" the way music mixes are. A song that gets "mastered" has a lot of sonic changes done to it. A film sound track that gets "Mastered" is being packaged in a specific format with no sonic changes. So while you are correct in one sense, that a big budget sound track is going to be packaged by another facility (optical negative, DD encode to optical negative etc.) none of these places are going to intentionally make any sonic changes which is what is usually meant by the term "Mastering" in the sound world.
In a big film the mix and the edit are very different beasts and no even in the mix there are not a "whole pile" of plugins. Generally multi band compression, some EQ, NR- possibly, and reverb possibly. In todays world the editor may have done NR, really depends on the workflow and how traditional it is.
The ADR supervisor if there is one would make the ADR list. Dialog editors might add things if they found something particularly problematic that the ADR supervisor missed. The Foley editor would do the Foley spotting list and that is added to by editors who find things that are not in the libraries. Again a lot depends on the workflow. The Sound supervisor if they are also an ADR editor may do the ADR list, some films don't have ADR supervisors. Same thing for Foley, how many people are involved depends on how the crew is set up. A lot of Sound Supervisors come out of FX so they will take on a lot of those duties but the ones who come out of Dialog or ADR tend to take on those rolls.
Yes.
The link is to a new feature where you can use an Le system as a video play back system linked to the TDM PT rig. THat has nothing to do with "farming" as used in the computer world. TDM "farm cards" go a long way back (15-20 years)and also were not farmed systems. Farmed systems has a very specific meaning in the computer world and PT doesn't really operate that way. You can link separate systems as you can almost any pro sound boxes through TC and sync boxes but they don't share the way a farmed system does.
I don't know what that means. There are probably always more tracks than faders. That is even more true with control surfaces. Still don't see the point.
Also don't know what you are talking about. HD didn't exist in 96 nor did Accel. In 96 films were still mostly mixed on analog boards with analog dubbers. Films are still mixed on boards or control surfaces that have channel strips, an average film mix board in a big budget facility probably has 100+ "channel strips". When you go to smaller spaces, yes the mixers/control surfaces have shrunk a lot and we use bank switching.
Well first the thread is "how the pro's do it" not how you do it. You can call it ambience if you want but that is NOT the proper name for it and NOT what the pro's call it. Recording in a different location from where the scene was shot is not Room Tone and nobody tries to get ten min worth. Also nobody with any sense records ambiences in mono.
? For sound? Yes they often do. A standard crew is a mixer and a boom op. You sometimes get an auxiliary or two but not always.
You had a long and meandering list of crew people and included music in with the sound post people, they are not part of the same crew. You didn't say anything about bad dialog being covered up by music, but that would not be a "pro" practice either.
Well, for instance THX is not a process it is a theatre (and equipment) certification. Like the "Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval". The only think THX on a film means is that it was mixed in a room that met THX standards. You would also know the work flow in a final mix and that you don't rent Dolby and that they come and take a feed from your final mix and make that into an optical track for printing onto 35mm film. You don't pay for that service it's part of the license agreement. It's not "mastering" other than it is the master copy of the AC3 compressed final mix. None of those people do release prints. I'm not sure what you mean by "digitals" but none of the companies you mentioned have anything to do with the release either analog or digital.
Do you actually READ the links you post? This has nothing to do with FILM. It's talking about there certifying HD TV displays. THX is a CERTIFICATION program, not a PROSES.
That would be "automated" not "automatic" and yes there is some swishiness to what the "A" actually stands for.
Well in ProTools, and we are talking Film sound post so we are talking ProTools, you check the anti pop box and it's done. Every region has a 10ms fadein and out added on the fly. Traditionally it was/ is standard film practice to put a 1/4 frame scrape on the head and tail of every cut. Nobody in film ever really paid much attention to zero crossings except when a lot of FX were being sent to samplers. Sound Forge is a two track editor and not used in film editing so any functions it has would be limited to preparing sound files and stuff to send to samplers. But yes a snap to zero kinda sorta does it, at least for mono files. Zero crossings are often hard to find in stereo files and next to impossible in multi track so you use head and tail scrapes and don't worry about it.
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j1clark@ucsd.edu
Veteran
Where are your clips on the site. All I found was some trailers with music or the like?
I presume "Leap" is the title of the film being worked on?
El Director
Veteran
Sorry, I pulled down the clips with the original audio.
grecostudios
Member
Heya well first off wanted to introduce myself as El Directors producer and someone who has done audio the "Hollywood" way. I have pretty good knowledge on audio and its capture (amongst other things). I'll list out the negatives and problems we would have had with the set up that you might traditionally find on a movie set.
1. Cost - Effectively the cost of the equipment would have cost probably 10 times or more than the audio equipment we did get for this movie (guess what it sounds as good as any movie I have seen and NO Indie sound
)2. Range - The range of shooting and the styles of shooting would have been more limited or become more complicated to shoot as some shots were out of electrical cord reach (ever try to adjust audio and play around with generators making sounds? NOT FUN!)
3. Crew - Another crew member would have been on to hold the boom mic since I would have been syncing up audio... That means training someone to do it and relying on the fact that they will show up on time...
4. Actors - It is hard to get make a time and date in which all of the actors could fit it into their hectic schedules. Hollywood audio = longer production time due to audio set up and checks = less shooting time.
I could name a few more but you kind of get the jyst of what I'm saying.
The thing is that the audio is "easier" for us to do because we can shoot with out worrying about audio. It means faster shoots, more gets done, and less money is wasted. Post Production can be a little bit of a pain, granted, but if one is willing to put in the extra effort and do Foley and whatnot then what does it matter? It still sounds good.
Honestly like I have said in other forums on DVX, if you want to criticize fine but give a legitimate reason for your opposition and if you think your way is better give your spin! Don't just type a quick sentence be constructive. It shows you know what your talking about and further aids this community
NOTE - I can honestly say tho that if you have an audio set up on location while filming and it takes you a few minutes to set it up then your not doing it correctly according to Hollywood (have a different take post your experiences). Audio checks should be done before every take and adjusted accordingly. Also you would have a binder that gives you specific mixer presets for different locations depending on what sound you needed . And most important is a boom pole operator that can hold it steady while shooting. I've seen many indie or student films who use decent boom poles but they don't know the traditional procedure or even try to use a combo of boom and wireless lapel (A technique used on LOTR to give an example).
Rippie
Veteran
grecostudios, honestly no disrespect but you really need to
learn a bit about sound before you start posting about "how to do it the proper way"
on a public audio forum.
(No need to go into more detail. this simple sentence as you say tells my "spin".)
There is a whole forum here that you can read that will teach you a few things about sound.
learn a bit about sound before you start posting about "how to do it the proper way"
on a public audio forum.
(No need to go into more detail. this simple sentence as you say tells my "spin".)
There is a whole forum here that you can read that will teach you a few things about sound.