Hoping for book on HMC-150
- Thread starter rtmst3k
- Start date
Retrospective
Well-known member
I'm going to get mine probably at the end of the month, even though I am like the 2nd one to order lol Knowing that Canada takes ages to get something across the border. Ridiculous! I hate the customs...
I am not familier with US postal services as I live in the UK but the tracking page still has the following message.
The U.S. Postal Service was electronically notified by the shipper on August 14, 2009 to expect your package for mailing. This does not indicate receipt by the USPS or the actual mailing date. Delivery status information will be provided if / when available. Information, if available, is updated periodically throughout the day. Please check again later.
Does that mean that the book has not been sent yet or is the tracking page sometimes slow to update please?
Regards,
Ken
The U.S. Postal Service was electronically notified by the shipper on August 14, 2009 to expect your package for mailing. This does not indicate receipt by the USPS or the actual mailing date. Delivery status information will be provided if / when available. Information, if available, is updated periodically throughout the day. Please check again later.
Does that mean that the book has not been sent yet or is the tracking page sometimes slow to update please?
Regards,
Ken
Barry_Green
Moderator
It was sent on the 14th. The USPS updating system is incredibly slow to update.
Barry, I wish you explaned more how the frequency graph-based focus assist works. You say that the goal is to make this graph as far to the right and as high as possible. But what exactly is displayed on axis X and axis Y? What If I don't want the whole frame in focus (it is not one plane), but a portion of it? If say, I want to focus onto an object in the lower right portion of the frame, how the graph should look like?
Even Adam Wilt, whom I considered a more geeky person than you, does not say much about how EXACTLY graphed focus assist works and what EXACTLY is displayed on both axes: http://provideocoalition.com/index....anasonic_ag_hpx170p_1_3_3ccd_p2_camcorder/P2/ He says: "As more of the scene comes into focus, the right side of the graph shows more data; maximizing the data to the right—both the higher frequencies and the overall amplitude—maximizes focus." So, axis X is frequency, low to high, and axis Y is amplitude? So if I have a shallow DOF scene with only 1/4 of a frame in focus, I will have the graph stretched at 1/4 on axis X? Will the graph look different if different quadrant of the frame are in focus?
You did not provide comparison images for peaking. All I can say that peaking on Canon HV20/30/40 is barely noticeable, I would like to see is it better on the HMC150.
Focusing bar is just a joke. I mean, the best it works with shallow DOF and clearly defined focus planes, at least you know what it corresponds to. In a busy less-shallow DOF scene you cannot even know what part of the frame this freaking bar reflects. Barry, could you press on all buttons you have for Panasonic to bring proper color peaking (preferably over B/W background) in future firmware updates for the HMC150? After all, Panasonic and JVC are pretty close, Panasonic pretty much owned (or still owns JVC), why cannot it provide the same focus assist that all JVC camcorders offer, including consumer ones.
Sorry for the long rant and digressing from the topic. I just started reading, found some interesting info, like panning speed. BTW, consumer Panasonics have a "panning is too fast" warning for 24p mode, so you don't need to know the speeds by heart ;-)
Even Adam Wilt, whom I considered a more geeky person than you, does not say much about how EXACTLY graphed focus assist works and what EXACTLY is displayed on both axes: http://provideocoalition.com/index....anasonic_ag_hpx170p_1_3_3ccd_p2_camcorder/P2/ He says: "As more of the scene comes into focus, the right side of the graph shows more data; maximizing the data to the right—both the higher frequencies and the overall amplitude—maximizes focus." So, axis X is frequency, low to high, and axis Y is amplitude? So if I have a shallow DOF scene with only 1/4 of a frame in focus, I will have the graph stretched at 1/4 on axis X? Will the graph look different if different quadrant of the frame are in focus?
You did not provide comparison images for peaking. All I can say that peaking on Canon HV20/30/40 is barely noticeable, I would like to see is it better on the HMC150.
Focusing bar is just a joke. I mean, the best it works with shallow DOF and clearly defined focus planes, at least you know what it corresponds to. In a busy less-shallow DOF scene you cannot even know what part of the frame this freaking bar reflects. Barry, could you press on all buttons you have for Panasonic to bring proper color peaking (preferably over B/W background) in future firmware updates for the HMC150? After all, Panasonic and JVC are pretty close, Panasonic pretty much owned (or still owns JVC), why cannot it provide the same focus assist that all JVC camcorders offer, including consumer ones.
Sorry for the long rant and digressing from the topic. I just started reading, found some interesting info, like panning speed. BTW, consumer Panasonics have a "panning is too fast" warning for 24p mode, so you don't need to know the speeds by heart ;-)
Ed Kishel
Veteran
In strong agreement, the freq graph seems to assume a deep focus shot in all shots. Shallow DOF shots are "out of focus" according to the graph. Strange thing is, the DVF detail the 150 uses now is basically there- now just add red to the high freq in the image.
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Barry_Green
Moderator
I'm not a big fan of the focus bar or the graph. One of the frustrations I had with the HPX500 is that it doesn't even have the magnified focus assist, it only has the graph.
The graph is not easy to explain exactly what it does, nor to figure out exactly how it performs, probably a reason why Adam and I ended up with comparable explanations. Some people have referred to it as a "histogram", which, while technically probably an accurate description, doesn't really reflect the reality of the notion that you can never have a mountain or twin-peaks type of histogram display from the focus graph. You'll always have a full vertical column on the left, regardless; normally with an exposure histogram you can "expose to the right", but with the focus assist graph you'll always have maximum data on the left and some measure of stretching to the right.
You're asking about quadrants and positioning, and it just doesn't really work like that. It appears to sample the central (roughly) 70% of the screen. You can't use it to determine spot focus on one area of the screen or other. The graph is a sampling of what's happening on the entire screen.
Best as I can figure, the x-axis is filling in with frequencies, low frequencies on the left and the presence of higher-frequency information to the right, and the y-axis is the ... well, amplitude is probably the right word, but it appears to be the amount of sampled information that it finds at that particular frequency. The higher the peak, the more it found at that particular frequency.
As for peaking, on a 150, it's night and day. Peaking Off = suicide. Peaking On = very sharp, very crisp imagery. No real reason to provide photos, I just instead say "epoxy that switch to the ON position." It makes a huge difference. The peaking is so superior to that on the DVX/HVX that I consider it one of the major upgrades to the camera.
The focus bar ... it's an ENG tool, nothing else. It's really pretty much, IMO, a different way to read the focus graph. However, the bar isn't offered on the 150, that's on the 170.
As for JVC/Panasonic, Panasonic sold JVC off about a year ago. They did take and incorporate the "focus in red" feature into their monitors, but not into the cameras. JVC's focus assist works reasonably well and is clever, but I wouldn't trade the magnified focus assist for it. The only real thing Panasonic's missing, I think, would be to add a user-selectable color for the peaking. The peaking on the HMC150 is pretty darn awesome, if they would just let us choose a color for it it'd probably satisfy anyone's request. But you can absolutely pull very sharp focus on a 150 using just the LCD and the peaking.
For my own use, I glue the EVF DTL button in the "on" position, and use the magnified focus assist to spot-check. Combined with the zoom-in/focus/zoom-out, it results in pinpoint focus every time. The graph is there for another focus aid, but frankly I think it's the least effective of all the focus assist tools.
The graph is not easy to explain exactly what it does, nor to figure out exactly how it performs, probably a reason why Adam and I ended up with comparable explanations. Some people have referred to it as a "histogram", which, while technically probably an accurate description, doesn't really reflect the reality of the notion that you can never have a mountain or twin-peaks type of histogram display from the focus graph. You'll always have a full vertical column on the left, regardless; normally with an exposure histogram you can "expose to the right", but with the focus assist graph you'll always have maximum data on the left and some measure of stretching to the right.
You're asking about quadrants and positioning, and it just doesn't really work like that. It appears to sample the central (roughly) 70% of the screen. You can't use it to determine spot focus on one area of the screen or other. The graph is a sampling of what's happening on the entire screen.
Best as I can figure, the x-axis is filling in with frequencies, low frequencies on the left and the presence of higher-frequency information to the right, and the y-axis is the ... well, amplitude is probably the right word, but it appears to be the amount of sampled information that it finds at that particular frequency. The higher the peak, the more it found at that particular frequency.
As for peaking, on a 150, it's night and day. Peaking Off = suicide. Peaking On = very sharp, very crisp imagery. No real reason to provide photos, I just instead say "epoxy that switch to the ON position." It makes a huge difference. The peaking is so superior to that on the DVX/HVX that I consider it one of the major upgrades to the camera.
The focus bar ... it's an ENG tool, nothing else. It's really pretty much, IMO, a different way to read the focus graph. However, the bar isn't offered on the 150, that's on the 170.
As for JVC/Panasonic, Panasonic sold JVC off about a year ago. They did take and incorporate the "focus in red" feature into their monitors, but not into the cameras. JVC's focus assist works reasonably well and is clever, but I wouldn't trade the magnified focus assist for it. The only real thing Panasonic's missing, I think, would be to add a user-selectable color for the peaking. The peaking on the HMC150 is pretty darn awesome, if they would just let us choose a color for it it'd probably satisfy anyone's request. But you can absolutely pull very sharp focus on a 150 using just the LCD and the peaking.
For my own use, I glue the EVF DTL button in the "on" position, and use the magnified focus assist to spot-check. Combined with the zoom-in/focus/zoom-out, it results in pinpoint focus every time. The graph is there for another focus aid, but frankly I think it's the least effective of all the focus assist tools.
Barry_Green
Moderator
And Edweirdo says in three sentences what it took me a novel to say.
Should I take it, that for focusing on something in a corner it is pretty much useless?
The HMC40 will have the bar, but I don't think it will have the frequency chart. I hope Panasonic does not drop magnified focus.
I would like to have both, but if I had to choose I would choose color peaking. I tried JVC cams with it, I tried Sony cams with it (the FX7), I tried Canon cam with it (the HF-S), it is an amazing tool, and while you are changing the focus you can see how the focus plane moves, so you can plan ahead where to stop and with what speed to pull. Also, focus magnification works only for the center of the frame, what if I have two subjects one on the left another on the right, and I want to pull focus while shooting? No dice, one or both will be outside of the magnified area.
That would be perfect! But I would also like B/W background for clarity. Could you ask Panasonic to implement that in future firmware releases?
This is good to know. When I played with the HMC150 at NAB, I did not know what "EVF DTL" was about (idiot! should have read the manual beforehand) so I did not press it and did not see the effect.
Yeah, but zoom-in/focus/zoom-out does not work while you are shooting, and the magnification covers only the center of the screen. The beauty of peaking is that it covers the whole frame.
Thanks for the reply. Now back to reading
P.S. Another candidate for firmware upgrade: show 720p and 1080-line clips without need for switching the mode. You make it as if it is a feature, I think this is a hassle and Panasonic should fix it. I can play ANYTHING on my computer without rebooting it, why the HMC cannot? It is the same computer after all.
P.P.S. It seems that Sony added some locks or dampers in their OIS system at least on the consumer models, so the cams do not rattle when turned off. Just another touch to make users' life and its own customer service less stressful. Panasonic should take note.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Yep.
The bar really isn't any less useful than the chart, in my opinion. But the magnified is the must.
Well, yes, but -- are we talking on-the-run, or scripted stuff? Because with scripted, you'd set focus marks before pulling the shot, and you'd use the focus distance readout to rack between them. One of the awesome things about the HMC150 and HVX200/HPX170 series is that the focus rings are precisely repeatable.
I've asked already. We'll see if it happens.
Well, correct, of course, but again, we normally pre-load the shot by doing that -- zoom in, grab perfect focus, make a note of the lens position, then zoom in to the other spot, grab perfect focus, make a note of the lens position, and then during the shot you can rack between them effortlessly.
But yes, the peaking on the HMC150 is good enough that you can pretty much pull off this kind of shot without even having to use the magnified assist.
Something nice on the GH1 is that you can move where the magnification comes from; it'd be nice to do that on the HVX/HPX/HMC lineup too, so the magnification wasn't always in the center; might make these types of shots easier to get.
They came up with a great way to do this on the 170, and I'd love to see it implemented on the 150 as well. It does still have to change modes, but it does it on the fly in the course of about one second, so it's pretty much effortless.
BOBBYTRASH
New member
cant wait till i get paid next week to order.
manglerBMX
Veteran
got mine today, thanks barry!
VideoMaker
Well-known member
Barry, I just ordered a copy of your HMC150 book. I am very interested in learning more about different focus techniques with my 150 - especially in event photography where I am trying to maintain focus on moving objects that may or may not remain in the center of the monitor.
What are you referring to in the quote below when you say "peaking"? I find no reference to that term in the Operator Guide.
What are you referring to in the quote below when you say "peaking"? I find no reference to that term in the Operator Guide.
Barry_Green
Moderator
The manual calls it "EVF DTL".
Skilled
Well-known member
WHAT.... the book is finally out.. Wear do you order????? Nevermind I see it on Barrys post. LOL
Barry Love the Book1 I need your help with Scene files! Sorry for being dense. I want to keep the camera files and load the files you have on the CD as needed. So I format my Scene card file in the camera. I put your cd in my Mac and then put my SD card in a reader so I can drag the files to the card. Where do I put them? Tried several ways. Put card back in camera went to load files nothing, tried read files again nothing. For the life of me I don't know why this is a challenge for me! Sorry and thanks for the help.