starcentral
Veteran
ICD - so what did you decide, what's the update, have you got any new lighting gear and have you been trying any of it. Would love to hear what you're doin'..
Cheers,
Cheers,
Home studio, what to get? Flash & sync for 5dmk2
- Thread starter ICD Films
- Start date
Yes picked up a speedlight, need to clear out some stuff from the living room before it's a working studio. Two questions:
- What is a modelling light for and why is everyone talking about it? Don't really get it... just a lamp ducttaped to the strobe? The photographers "directors viewfinder" or what?
- Recycling time, I guess it's the rate you can fire it? Because I was kinda dissapointed how slow the speedlight is... I just assumed modern flashes could be fired without hassle. Oops!
(PS. Confused with terms cus I'm a foreigner, not retarded...
)
- What is a modelling light for and why is everyone talking about it? Don't really get it... just a lamp ducttaped to the strobe? The photographers "directors viewfinder" or what?
- Recycling time, I guess it's the rate you can fire it? Because I was kinda dissapointed how slow the speedlight is... I just assumed modern flashes could be fired without hassle. Oops!
(PS. Confused with terms cus I'm a foreigner, not retarded...
)
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starcentral
Veteran
A modelling light does a few things,
- It lets you preview what the effect of the light will have on your subject and scene so you can get an idea of what your final image will look like once the actual more powerful flash head fires. It also therefore gives you an idea of where the shadows will fall on your subject. Read (google) rembrant lighting, butterfly lighting to get an idea of these different light placement techniques.
- In the old days I imagine a modelling light was used more to previsualize the lighting effect since working with film you would not see the results until developed afterwards. These days however you can take a few test snaps until you get the lighting to your liking. (Its not like you move your lighting after each shot or two)
- Another more practical and modern use of modelling lights is to help out the speed of your auto-focus on your DSLR - although it should work pretty good in low lighting conditions. A photographer who's work I really admire (and also shoots a lot with speedlights) is Stephen Eastwood and I've seen him use a low power light just over his camera position to light his subject slightly to help out focusing. Generally if you shoot with decent shutter speeds you are cutting out stray daylight anyway, so you can shoot with some daylight coming in the windows but rely mainly on your speedlight to light your scene. Experiement, but I suggest shooting around 1/125th.
With your Canon and 580EXii you can simulate a "modelling light" by pressing the depth of field preview button on your camera body. It will strobe your speedlight really fast for a few seconds allowing you to see the lighting effect and shadow placement on your subject. Don't do it too much, excessive strobing like that is not good for your flash at all.
As for recycling time, it is pretty fast on a 580EXii (I own three of them and they all fire fast). Be sure to use high amp rechargeable batteries. I am using 2600mAh AA's and have no problems. If you are still not getting good recycling times then I suspect something wrong with your 580EXii. By the way for about $80-$90 I bought 20 2600mAh with battery charger on ebay... look into something like that since its a bloody steal of a deal.
- It lets you preview what the effect of the light will have on your subject and scene so you can get an idea of what your final image will look like once the actual more powerful flash head fires. It also therefore gives you an idea of where the shadows will fall on your subject. Read (google) rembrant lighting, butterfly lighting to get an idea of these different light placement techniques.
- In the old days I imagine a modelling light was used more to previsualize the lighting effect since working with film you would not see the results until developed afterwards. These days however you can take a few test snaps until you get the lighting to your liking. (Its not like you move your lighting after each shot or two)
- Another more practical and modern use of modelling lights is to help out the speed of your auto-focus on your DSLR - although it should work pretty good in low lighting conditions. A photographer who's work I really admire (and also shoots a lot with speedlights) is Stephen Eastwood and I've seen him use a low power light just over his camera position to light his subject slightly to help out focusing. Generally if you shoot with decent shutter speeds you are cutting out stray daylight anyway, so you can shoot with some daylight coming in the windows but rely mainly on your speedlight to light your scene. Experiement, but I suggest shooting around 1/125th.
With your Canon and 580EXii you can simulate a "modelling light" by pressing the depth of field preview button on your camera body. It will strobe your speedlight really fast for a few seconds allowing you to see the lighting effect and shadow placement on your subject. Don't do it too much, excessive strobing like that is not good for your flash at all.
As for recycling time, it is pretty fast on a 580EXii (I own three of them and they all fire fast). Be sure to use high amp rechargeable batteries. I am using 2600mAh AA's and have no problems. If you are still not getting good recycling times then I suspect something wrong with your 580EXii. By the way for about $80-$90 I bought 20 2600mAh with battery charger on ebay... look into something like that since its a bloody steal of a deal.
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Michael Carter
Veteran
Most of the guys I've seen shoot with shoemounts use something like a Qunatum battery plugged into the power port (if your flash has one). Instant recycle with those.
As for watt-seconds... shooting 4x5 film (view camera product shots) at like f45... yes, you'd have several huge packs going. We only shot 400 speed film if we wanted some grain or for location situations with no light. DSLRs just don't need as much light. Even for product shots with a DSLR I'm using a couple 1000ws packs.
Modeling lights - they're showing you everything in the lighting chain - reflectors, grids, flags, softboxes - the bulb is placed near the flash tube. Higher end gear has modeling lights up to 250 watts vs. 50-100 watts - makes a nice difference.
Shooting 6x7 film with a prism attached would effectively lower your viewfinder by like 2 stops - could be impossible to focus; photogs would often have a big 500 watt open faced light when they started shooting, with the shutter speed fast enough to negate it - we called those "focusing lights". Once you started to shoot you'd lose all the "mood" of your model lights, so it kind of sucked rolling that way - remember, we pulled polaroids at the start of the shoot and had no LCD to check the progress of the shoot, so losing the mood/style of your setup was a leap of faith and really jacked with your creativity - you had to really envision how the film was going to look; for complex lighting setups, you'd often pull a 'roid at the END of the shoot to make sure nothing changed, like a pack not firing or a flag dropping.
Shooting film was definitely a "separates the men from the boys" era - after an expensive shoot it was tough to sleep sometimes, waiting for your snip tests from the lab. There were far fewer commercial shooters back then, you really had to know your stuff. Ah, the old days.
As for watt-seconds... shooting 4x5 film (view camera product shots) at like f45... yes, you'd have several huge packs going. We only shot 400 speed film if we wanted some grain or for location situations with no light. DSLRs just don't need as much light. Even for product shots with a DSLR I'm using a couple 1000ws packs.
Modeling lights - they're showing you everything in the lighting chain - reflectors, grids, flags, softboxes - the bulb is placed near the flash tube. Higher end gear has modeling lights up to 250 watts vs. 50-100 watts - makes a nice difference.
Shooting 6x7 film with a prism attached would effectively lower your viewfinder by like 2 stops - could be impossible to focus; photogs would often have a big 500 watt open faced light when they started shooting, with the shutter speed fast enough to negate it - we called those "focusing lights". Once you started to shoot you'd lose all the "mood" of your model lights, so it kind of sucked rolling that way - remember, we pulled polaroids at the start of the shoot and had no LCD to check the progress of the shoot, so losing the mood/style of your setup was a leap of faith and really jacked with your creativity - you had to really envision how the film was going to look; for complex lighting setups, you'd often pull a 'roid at the END of the shoot to make sure nothing changed, like a pack not firing or a flag dropping.
Shooting film was definitely a "separates the men from the boys" era - after an expensive shoot it was tough to sleep sometimes, waiting for your snip tests from the lab. There were far fewer commercial shooters back then, you really had to know your stuff. Ah, the old days.
starcentral
Veteran
ICD, any luck, any progress, any questions?
Would love to know how you're making out....
Would love to know how you're making out....
So, first studio shoot ever today (and pretty much first time ever using a flash at all...) Model had to wait for me fiddling around with the settings on the flash, but other than that, I think we did ok.
We played around a bit with letting in natural light aswell, I had ductaped the windows with paper but I felt I got the "cheap studio look" so we played around some with that, aswell as positioning of the flash. From the right felt "right" on her face.
Umbrella, 580ex2, 5dmk2, iso200, silver disc
We played around a bit with letting in natural light aswell, I had ductaped the windows with paper but I felt I got the "cheap studio look" so we played around some with that, aswell as positioning of the flash. From the right felt "right" on her face.
Umbrella, 580ex2, 5dmk2, iso200, silver disc
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starcentral
Veteran
Hey those are some great shots and a great start! You will only get better.
I bought a disc holder that is pretty handy and can go on top of light stand so you don't have to have someone hold it.
Pretty good shadow placement in the first pic, you can tell from nose shadow you pretty well got the light 45 to side and 45 degrees up. Use that shadow as your guide for your lighting setups. Also your DOF preview button on camera should strobe your 580 so you can quickly see light/shadow. Its like a quick modelling lamp..
Looking forward to seeing more stuff... Great thing is you can take your setup practically anywhere.
I bought a disc holder that is pretty handy and can go on top of light stand so you don't have to have someone hold it.
Pretty good shadow placement in the first pic, you can tell from nose shadow you pretty well got the light 45 to side and 45 degrees up. Use that shadow as your guide for your lighting setups. Also your DOF preview button on camera should strobe your 580 so you can quickly see light/shadow. Its like a quick modelling lamp..
Looking forward to seeing more stuff... Great thing is you can take your setup practically anywhere.
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starcentral
Veteran
There are a couple ways,
Use a larger light modifier (umbrella, softbox, etc..) or you can move your smaller light modifier closer to your subject.
If you want a full body shot then obviously a small umbrella weill have to be further away and therefore appear much smaller in the eye. Also an umbrella as a light modifier FAR away will light more of the whole area along with the subject, so you could end up getting a flatter looking image without a lot of contrast. A great light modifier for full body shots is a large octobox of rectangle softbox with grid. It can be further away but the grid helps keep your light directed and therefore will help keep your contrast under control in your image. Also for large light modifiers far away I recommend multiple 580's or you will have to shoot much higher ISO's and lower f-stops.
On the other hand, if you are just doing 1/2 or 1/4 body shots then just move your umbrella closer to your subject before it is in the frame of your shot. This will work well and then use your reflector on the opposite side to give you the amount of contrast you like. Its also your cheapest option.
Here's an image I took with my light only a couple feet from my subject, note the nice large round reflection in the eye. I used one 580EXII in a beauty dish as the key light, and a second 580EXII through x-small chimera softbox lighting the white backdrop. Triggered with pocket wizard TT1 and two TT5's.
Use a larger light modifier (umbrella, softbox, etc..) or you can move your smaller light modifier closer to your subject.
If you want a full body shot then obviously a small umbrella weill have to be further away and therefore appear much smaller in the eye. Also an umbrella as a light modifier FAR away will light more of the whole area along with the subject, so you could end up getting a flatter looking image without a lot of contrast. A great light modifier for full body shots is a large octobox of rectangle softbox with grid. It can be further away but the grid helps keep your light directed and therefore will help keep your contrast under control in your image. Also for large light modifiers far away I recommend multiple 580's or you will have to shoot much higher ISO's and lower f-stops.
On the other hand, if you are just doing 1/2 or 1/4 body shots then just move your umbrella closer to your subject before it is in the frame of your shot. This will work well and then use your reflector on the opposite side to give you the amount of contrast you like. Its also your cheapest option.
Here's an image I took with my light only a couple feet from my subject, note the nice large round reflection in the eye. I used one 580EXII in a beauty dish as the key light, and a second 580EXII through x-small chimera softbox lighting the white backdrop. Triggered with pocket wizard TT1 and two TT5's.
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egproductions
Veteran
starcentral is correct, the further your light source is, the larger is has to be in order to get the same amount of diffusion and size catch light in the eyes. It follows similiar principles as the inverse square law in regards to how much bigger it needs to be when further away. The image below is one I took at a wedding where I bounced my strobes into the corner of a very large room. I use a wide reflector dish to essentially turn the corner of the room into a really large light source (obviously I avoid shooting in that direction of the room and stick to the short side of the subject)
You can buy very large shoot through umbrellas though. Try amazon and the paul c buff website. I have incredibly large 82" shoot through umbrellas. Both shoot through and bounce will give you large catch lights but bounce has a little more reflectiveness which will give you a hot spot and little less diffusion.
starcentral
Veteran
For multiple 580's you should look into cheap optical slaves, it works by pluging in a photo sensor into the PC jack of a flash which is then triggered by your main flash. Check out this link for more info..
http://pixsylated.com/blog/canon-speedlites-optical-slaves/
http://pixsylated.com/blog/canon-speedlites-optical-slaves/
Ugh that sucks... they mumble about master/slaves in the 2-page quickguide, so I just assumed it was built in. Cheap of Canon on such expensive gear.
http://learn.usa.canon.com/app/pdfs/quickguides/CDLC_580EXII_QuickGuide.pdf
http://learn.usa.canon.com/app/pdfs/quickguides/CDLC_580EXII_QuickGuide.pdf
starcentral
Veteran
You can buy a Canon ST-E2 Infrared Transmitter, then use it to trigger up your flashes, might be some limited capabilities but I am going through the manual to have a peek.
IR isn't great outdoors however, but generally works quite will indoors. I own a 7D and it has IR transmitting built in and I can trigger a flash pretty easily, even from a distance.
http://media.the-digital-picture.com/Owners-Manuals/Canon-Speedlite-Transmitter-ST-E2.pdf
IR isn't great outdoors however, but generally works quite will indoors. I own a 7D and it has IR transmitting built in and I can trigger a flash pretty easily, even from a distance.
http://media.the-digital-picture.com/Owners-Manuals/Canon-Speedlite-Transmitter-ST-E2.pdf
Thanks. Ever heard about this brand by the way? The guy reviewing them got them from the manufacturer so... but found them here in sweden for the same price I paid for one cord... oh well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVvtXsXV8ZY
Phottix Strato 2.4GHz Wire/Wireless 4 in 1
There was no costumer reviews on Amazon & not available on B&H but seems to be similar brands in the same price range. I really can't afford pocket wizards in the near future and that cable is pretty darn limiting.
edit: well I ordered them, as long as one got ETTL on the main flash that's all i need and more at the moment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVvtXsXV8ZY
Phottix Strato 2.4GHz Wire/Wireless 4 in 1
There was no costumer reviews on Amazon & not available on B&H but seems to be similar brands in the same price range. I really can't afford pocket wizards in the near future and that cable is pretty darn limiting.
edit: well I ordered them, as long as one got ETTL on the main flash that's all i need and more at the moment.
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starcentral
Veteran
Never heard of it, but as long as its RF and not IR or photo slave, I think that will be a good choice indeed!
Speaking of pocket wizards, today a couple friends asked me to do their photos so we head outdoors to a local park to do some shots. It was 6pm, a little sunny, and I put them under a tree in complete shade using only a single 580exii on a stand 45 degrees off to one side, eye-level, and 20 feet away from them. No diffuser, just straight 580exII manually set to 70mm or so. This is one of the shots I took. (note the shadow from the girls left arm.. gives away the position of the flash!)
It was taken with a 70-200mm f2.8 lens @ 1/250th, f5.6, ISO 200. Had I not used the flash and exposed for their skin on the shade you can bet the background would have been blown out. Your next assignment (should you choose to accept it) is try some single flash outdoor stuff. Keep the sun to the back of your subject(s) and use the flash as front fill.
Speaking of pocket wizards, today a couple friends asked me to do their photos so we head outdoors to a local park to do some shots. It was 6pm, a little sunny, and I put them under a tree in complete shade using only a single 580exii on a stand 45 degrees off to one side, eye-level, and 20 feet away from them. No diffuser, just straight 580exII manually set to 70mm or so. This is one of the shots I took. (note the shadow from the girls left arm.. gives away the position of the flash!)
It was taken with a 70-200mm f2.8 lens @ 1/250th, f5.6, ISO 200. Had I not used the flash and exposed for their skin on the shade you can bet the background would have been blown out. Your next assignment (should you choose to accept it) is try some single flash outdoor stuff. Keep the sun to the back of your subject(s) and use the flash as front fill.
Yes outdoor will be interesting to try out... I like to bounce natural light around but things like actually placing a speedlight hidden in the background etc...i feel creative just thinking about it!
Shots like these, is it a huge softbox close to the model? It looks soft but still hot, she doesn't appear to be standing *that* far off the background but again just guessing here. Some russian agency, I really like their style, similar lighting on the other images aswell:
http://rfmodel.ru/i/photo/IMG_4296.jpg
http://rfmodel.ru/en/women/model-lebedeva_elona.html
Really confused about all these "beaty dishes" and stuff, I guess one almost has to try different gear IRL to get a feel for what it does. (Also going through this thread again... now all the terms and such seems less alien!)
edit: Should I get something like this?
Shots like these, is it a huge softbox close to the model? It looks soft but still hot, she doesn't appear to be standing *that* far off the background but again just guessing here. Some russian agency, I really like their style, similar lighting on the other images aswell:
http://rfmodel.ru/i/photo/IMG_4296.jpg
http://rfmodel.ru/en/women/model-lebedeva_elona.html
Really confused about all these "beaty dishes" and stuff, I guess one almost has to try different gear IRL to get a feel for what it does. (Also going through this thread again... now all the terms and such seems less alien!)
edit: Should I get something like this?
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starcentral
Veteran
If you want to try an get lighting similar to that last pic, try shooting through your umbrella instead of bouncing into it. The light will wrap around your subject more and fall off faster... creating a more contrast look.
Yes buying and trying light modifiers until you find what you like can be painful and expensive!
In this shot I am using a beauty dish, a little too hot and background too close behind model. Again, small distance in studio is not good and problem of over half people trying to setup studio:
Here I am using nothing more than a 16x22 x-small softbox, no room for even reflector disc. No other work done in post other than desaturate and play with contrast and clarity settings:
Yes buying and trying light modifiers until you find what you like can be painful and expensive!
In this shot I am using a beauty dish, a little too hot and background too close behind model. Again, small distance in studio is not good and problem of over half people trying to setup studio:
Here I am using nothing more than a 16x22 x-small softbox, no room for even reflector disc. No other work done in post other than desaturate and play with contrast and clarity settings:
Yeah the man on the chair is a great shot. I tried some "drama" in post but it's not the same thing. Gonna throw out my sofa to get another 30 inches or so if depth.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28529621@N07/7766050246/in/photostream
I guess there's nothing wrong with trying DIY stuff in a a home studio, just painitng it black so it looks decent... lol. Although, still need to get a dish for a speedlight to see how the construction is, scratching my head how one can mount anything on these...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28529621@N07/7766050246/in/photostream
I guess there's nothing wrong with trying DIY stuff in a a home studio, just painitng it black so it looks decent... lol. Although, still need to get a dish for a speedlight to see how the construction is, scratching my head how one can mount anything on these...
starcentral
Veteran
Thanks. I've honestly done some amazing things with a single 580exii in a 16x22 softbox indoors and out:
You photos look good, some are a little hot like mine are. Its better to go under a bit and boost fill back in post if needed. I'm using Lightroom and its a god send, even has highlight recovery which has come in handy. How big is your umbrella and how far away from subject, and how big is room and high is ceiling, and are they all painted white?
The thing is, you spent $500 or so on a 580exii and $15 for a cable, now you can try things without having to drop thousands in studio heads. Later, once you reach your limits (want higher f-stops, lower ISO, etc..) you will know what to buy and why you need it. As for not having a modelling light and all that talk, well if you really want you can mount a low watt quartz on your light stand with flash and use that. It will also help your camera with auto-focus. Anyway, sooner than you know it you'll be buying a set of Elinchroms - my favorite studio heads personally.
For a good cost effective beauty dish I'm using as Kacey 22" beauty dish. http://www.kaceyenterprises.com. The version I bought will let me mount two 580ex'ii to it, but so far I've only used one. My biggest issue now is my "studio" is too small, just a 14x16 empty room. Not ideal.
You photos look good, some are a little hot like mine are. Its better to go under a bit and boost fill back in post if needed. I'm using Lightroom and its a god send, even has highlight recovery which has come in handy. How big is your umbrella and how far away from subject, and how big is room and high is ceiling, and are they all painted white?
The thing is, you spent $500 or so on a 580exii and $15 for a cable, now you can try things without having to drop thousands in studio heads. Later, once you reach your limits (want higher f-stops, lower ISO, etc..) you will know what to buy and why you need it. As for not having a modelling light and all that talk, well if you really want you can mount a low watt quartz on your light stand with flash and use that. It will also help your camera with auto-focus. Anyway, sooner than you know it you'll be buying a set of Elinchroms - my favorite studio heads personally.
For a good cost effective beauty dish I'm using as Kacey 22" beauty dish. http://www.kaceyenterprises.com. The version I bought will let me mount two 580ex'ii to it, but so far I've only used one. My biggest issue now is my "studio" is too small, just a 14x16 empty room. Not ideal.