HMC40 - First Look

Cranky said:
I was hoping that the camera would trade resolution for low noise, but it does not seem to happen.
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Well, I could argue that it does -- it definitely gets much lower resolution. The noise doesn't look like "noise" so much as it makes a splotchy "oil paint" effect (plus sucking all the color out like a vampire).

The HMC150's noise is a really rather pleasing film-grain-style effect, primarily luma noise. The HMC40's noise, so far, seems to get a little grainy up to +18, and then after that it goes to the oil paint smudgy/splotchy effect.
 
Barry_Green said:
The HMC150's noise is a really rather pleasing film-grain-style effect, primarily luma noise. The HMC40's noise, so far, seems to get a little grainy up to +18, and then after that it goes to the oil paint smudgy/splotchy effect.
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A.k.a. mud? ;-)
 
Yep, I said in that post that it's not unlike what the GH1 or other CMOS cameras do. Might be a CMOS thing. I don't think it's truly "mud" per se, because that's what we've been calling the compression getting overloaded, and this has nothing to do with compression (as it's a still shot, and the 0dB gain shot is rendered very cleanly, so the 34dB shot should be within the compressor's ability to handle!)
 
Anyway... It would be really-really-really (times 10) helpful to compare the 40 with the good old HV20/30/40. LINZAC's message confirms my opinion that the 40 will be the first pro camera for many beginners, and comparing it to a well-known consumer camera is invaluable. Could you borrow the HV from someone? Maybe some of your friends uses one for capturing XH-A1 videos.
 
Don't have one, don't know anyone who does...

Thread updated with pictures showing diffraction testing. Net result? Ain't a big deal. Stay away from f/11 and you won't even likely notice it. Which is a big surprise, but a welcome one.
 
Cranky said:
Anyway... It would be really-really-really (times 10) helpful to compare the 40 with the good old HV20/30/40. LINZAC's message confirms my opinion that the 40 will be the first pro camera for many beginners, and comparing it to a well-known consumer camera is invaluable. Could you borrow the HV from someone? Maybe some of your friends uses one for capturing XH-A1 videos.
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Cranky, I agree to compare the HMC-40 to similar performing cameras. It is clear that the HMC-40 does not compare to any of the current or even older 1/3" sensor cameras (A1, FX-1000, 150) for low light, which we all knew in the first place. It's also a different, lower price point camera not meant to fight the 1/3" cameras.

I have already returned my HMC-40 as it was quickly obvious trying it over the weekend it would not work for my low light needs. I already have B & C cameras I have to fight with matching to the HMC-150 footage in low light, I don't need another one. If I want a super sharp good light only camera, I can get several of the inexpensive Canons for the cost of the HMC-40.
 
jeff9329 said:
Cranky, I agree to compare the HMC-40 to similar performing cameras. It is clear that the HMC-40 does not compare to any of the current or even older 1/3" sensor cameras (A1, FX-1000, 150) for low light, which we all knew in the first place. It's also a different, lower price point camera not meant to fight the 1/3" cameras.
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This is exactly the point I am trying to make. Comparing with the HV would be great. Comparing with the comparable lower-priced offerings from Sony (A1/HC1 or V1/FX7) would be great too, but Barry have already said he does not own any of these cams. If the HMC40 compares well to the V1, it may be a viable choice for those who like small size of the V1 but want to go tapeless. Sony semi-officially stated that it relegates AVCHD for mass consumer market only. If you want to get a higher-level Sony cam then it has to be HDV.
 
Thanks to all who responded and for all the advice, based on a recommendation on my first post, I moved my post to the HMC40 Vs the 150 Thread.
 
Cranky said:
This is exactly the point I am trying to make. Comparing with the HV would be great. Comparing with the comparable lower-priced offerings from Sony (A1/HC1 or V1/FX7) would be great too, but Barry have already said he does not own any of these cams. If the HMC40 compares well to the V1, it may be a viable choice for those who like small size of the V1 but want to go tapeless. Sony semi-officially stated that it relegates AVCHD for mass consumer market only. If you want to get a higher-level Sony cam then it has to be HDV.
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I have a Canon HV20 and a Sony HD1000 which I can compare the HMC40 to. Never done any real tests so don't know where to start.
 
Cranky said:
Sony semi-officially stated that it relegates AVCHD for mass consumer market only. If you want to get a higher-level Sony cam then it has to be HDV.
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Which is just plain comical, because Sony has also said that they consider 9 megabits of AVCHD to be a match for 25 megabits of MPEG-2. So they acknowledge the codec is much better, but they won't let professionals use it... that's just... schizophrenic or something...
 
Windjammer said:
So how many stops would 18db of gain translate into?
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1 stop == 6dB.

You may wonder how come. Here it is: "In connection with digital and video image sensors, decibels generally represent ratios of video voltages or digitized light levels, using 20 log of the ratio" -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel#Video_and_digital_imaging

So, 20 x log10(2x/x) == 20 x log10(2) ~ 20 * 0.30 == 6 (dB)

In the above 2x/x is the difference in light transmission, because with each f-stop the amount of light is doubled.
 
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An interesting point with diffraction...

At about F8 --> F9 the diffraction started to come into play and limit the resolution, BUT that's at the 1080P mode. I would guess that in the 720p mode, we could go higher than F8 before diffraction steps into place.

The drop in resolution at F11 might not bee too bad in the 720p mode.


Bob Diaz
 
How does the low light issue of the HMC40 compare to the original DVX100? I'm still shooting with the DVX and would like to upgrade to HD. I also use the DVC30 as a second cam at wedding ceremonies and I'm always impressed with the footage shot in decent light. Is the HMC40 worse in low light than the DVX100/DVC30?
 
There really isn't any HD camera out there at any sort of affordable price that can match how good a DVX100 is in low light. The DVX, especially in 60i, is fantastic.

If you wanted an HMC40 to deliver the same brightness as a DVX, when both are in 60i, you'd have to use +24dB of gain on the HMC40.

If you wanted to match the same brightness when the DVX is in 24P mode, you'd have to use +18dB of gain.
 
Barry_Green said:
I wouldn't think so, since Sony is a co-owner and co-developer of the AVCHD format. They're the ones that people would be paying royalties to, wouldn't they?
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Just saw that there is no license restriction in the manual of a Sony HDR-CX520VE which is different from Panasonic. (Panasonic also is a co-owner.) This might be due to the fact that these small Sonys will not be used for professional purpose because of their lack of manual functions.
 
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