Hmc150 vs ex1

DanHD said:
the hmc must do a whole lot of subsampling to reach full raster 1080p
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Quite simple really. one of the CCDs is offset by half a pixel so I assume that that is processed to give the 1080p luminence info (presumably with some clever maths). The colour info is effectively 540p anyway as it is 1080p 420

Presumably, with the EX1 a lot of the sensor data must get lost when encoding into MPEG2. So I guess the end result from the 2 cams isn't as different as it would be if you were recording all the data from the sensors on each cam.
 
DaFireMedic said:
Justyn: Very nice video

I am heading toward purchasing an HMC-150 after the first of the year. I don't think I'll be able to stretch my budget for the EX1, although I'd like to have it.

Anyone had any problems with drop outs occurring during long clips with the HMC-150? I've read a few posts stating that some have lost some frames over long clips or had gaps in their footage, although I'm hearing that it only tends to happen when using the very low end SDHC cards.

I'm shooting a lot of classroom stuff where I sometimes have 1 hr long clips and it needs to be somewhat reliable at capturing them. Any problems from the HMC-150 in this regard? Have any of you experienced this or have your long clips been just fine?
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Hi Justyn,

I have had problems with long clips. I use final cut express and when it joins the clips in PH mode it has a glitch for a few seconds after about 30 mins. This doesn't seem to be a problem with lower bitrate modes so far.

Final cut studio was recently updated and it seems this issue might be resolved on that software, but FCE isn't updated yet. I don't think this is a problem with the memory cards as mine are class 6, it seems to be a problem with how the NLE joins the clips together.

Stu
 
studio1972 said:
Presumably, with the EX1 a lot of the sensor data must get lost when encoding into MPEG2. So I guess the end result from the 2 cams isn't as different as it would be if you were recording all the data from the sensors on each cam.
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That's news to me.
Shoot a rez chart and post samples.
 
I'm going to update the to the recent one too and see if it cures all of the probs.. the last one cured 99 percent of it, but there's still some problems at the the blends...
 
Stevet said:
That's news to me.
Shoot a rez chart and post samples.
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Well, I don't own an EX1 so I cannot actually do that. However, it seems obvious that if you have 3 full 1080p sensors, one for each colour, and then compress the resulting data into an MPEG2 file (4:2:0), you are going to lose a lot of the colour data (3/4 of it by my reckoning).

This is surely a big hit for the EX1, but not for the HMC, as it doesn't have all that much chrominance data in the first place, due to lower rez sensors.

The point I was trying to make, is that by the time the sensor data from the 2 cameras has been compressed into their respective formats, some of the advantage that the EX1 has from its sensors has been lost, so the gap between the 2 cameras isn't so great.
 
studio1972 said:
The point I was trying to make, is that by the time the sensor data from the 2 cameras has been compressed into their respective formats, some of the advantage that the EX1 has from its sensors has been lost, so the gap between the 2 cameras isn't so great.
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LOL!

So If I have a million dollars, and you have 1000, and we both toss away half, we're close?

The lovely thing about the EX1, is that you don't have to toss away anything. Same with the HPX-170. Not so on the 150. So no, I wouldn't say they're "close".
 
PerroneFord said:
The lovely thing about the EX1, is that you don't have to toss away anything. Same with the HPX-170. Not so on the 150. So no, I wouldn't say they're "close".
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Hmmm... I can perhaps buy your argument regarding the EX1 (though in some way I'd say you're "tossing away" motion quality with rolling shutter issuses), but the 170? The optics and sensors are the same as the 150; the only difference is the codec, where the HMC doesn't seem to throw much away vs. the HPX... the HMC is full raster vs. the HPX non-square DVCProHD. The 4:2:0 vs. 4:2:2 is a trickier issue, involving the different horizontal res and the pixel shift utility - but I don't think they're that far off.
 
PerroneFord said:
LOL!

So If I have a million dollars, and you have 1000, and we both toss away half, we're close?

The lovely thing about the EX1, is that you don't have to toss away anything. Same with the HPX-170. Not so on the 150. So no, I wouldn't say they're "close".
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Either you are deliberately misrepresenting what I said, or you just didn't understand it?

Using your analogy, the EX1 has 2M pixels per colour, the HMC has 500k pixels, lets say $2m and $500k.

Lets say that the XDCAM EX or AVCCAM file is a briefcase into which you can put your money. It is 4:2:0 so it only contains $500 of colour info.

Therefore, with the EX1 you end up throwing away $1.5m, but the HMC only has $500k to begin with, so either way you end up with the same amount of money, $500k.

If you use the SDI output on the EX1 then you have a larger briefcase, which can carry $1m, but you have still lost the other $1m. You would need a 4:4:4 codec to store all the sensor data, I think that Red has this sort of codec.

It seems to me that the codec is the main limiting factor on the EX1, as the hardware is superior to the HMC, but the codec brings it down to a level similar to the HMC.

There are lots of other factors of course, such as lens quality, image processing, frame rates, rolling shutter, and ergonomics, but i terms of image quality, the cameras should be quite close unless you are using the SDI output from the EX1. The EX1 would have an advantage in terms of luminance data as this is recorded at full 1080p of course.
 
Let's face it.
No one on any of these forums is going to be sold or have their minds changed on what they feel is important to themselves.

It works both ways, some would take two 150 cameras over one EX, and some would not take the 150 cameras if they were handed to them.

Most could say they want the best camera possible that settles their needs for the least amount of money. If you like what you see, that's all that's important.

This is why is SO important to actually test drive before you buy.
 
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Stevet said:
Let's face it.
No one on any of these forums is going to be sold or have their minds changed on what they feel is important to themselves.

It works both ways, some would take two 150 cameras over one EX, and some would not take the 150 cameras if they were handed to them.

Most could say they want the best camera possible that settles their needs for the least amount of money. If you like what you see, that's all that's important.

This is why is SO important to actually test drive before you buy.
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Agreed.

From all I've seen the EX-1 and 150 are close enough that the extra $$ for the EX-1 seems like tossing money into Sony's briefcase.
 
studio1972 said:
If you use the SDI output on the EX1 then you have a larger briefcase, which can carry $1m, but you have still lost the other $1m. You would need a 4:4:4 codec to store all the sensor data, I think that Red has this sort of codec.

It seems to me that the codec is the main limiting factor on the EX1, as the hardware is superior to the HMC, but the codec brings it down to a level similar to the HMC.

...the cameras should be quite close unless you are using the SDI output from the EX1. The EX1 would have an advantage in terms of luminance data as this is recorded at full 1080p of course.
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And this is the argument that I've made every time these cameras are compared. I feel the glass on the EXx camera is a bit better, and the sensors are better (arguably with that CMOS/CCD argument notwithstanding). However, they are very close.

The difference, to me, really is that the EX1 can change the game with the SDI port, and the 150 cannot. For those that have no use for an SDI port, the HMC is probably a better buy. For those who NEED the SDI port, the 150 is a non-starter. But for those who are on the fence, those who MIGHT like to move up to a better recording level for their "pro" or "film" projects, the EX1 offers them a chance to step into that world as their pocket permits, while the 150 does not. Yes, you can use an HDMI to SDI converter box and get the signal, but that signal is not carrying everything an SDI signal is.

Again, I hate these silly arguments, both are great cameras, but both are rather large compromises away from truly pro cameras. So you pay your money, and you take your choice. I needed both SDI and component out as well as firewire. So my choice was clear.
 
PerroneFord said:
The difference, to me, really is that the EX1 can change the game with the SDI port, and the 150 cannot.
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Yes it can.

For those that have no use for an SDI port, the HMC is probably a better buy. For those who NEED the SDI port, the 150 is a non-starter.
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Why? The 150 has a direct uncompressed digital 4:2:2 output, its HDMI port. Every bit as good a signal as HD-SDI. Many monitors and even capture boards will take that direct feed. For those who absolutely need HD-SDI, you can always get a $395 Convergent Designs NanoConnect HDMI->HD-SDI converter box.

But for those who are on the fence, those who MIGHT like to move up to a better recording level for their "pro" or "film" projects, the EX1 offers them a chance to step into that world as their pocket permits, while the 150 does not. Yes, you can use an HDMI to SDI converter box and get the signal, but that signal is not carrying everything an SDI signal is.
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And what is missing? Timecode? The HMC150 has a true LTC timecode out jack. The EX1 doesn't even have that. Heck, when it comes to that, the counterargument could go that the HMC150 can sync to an external timecode slate or dual-system audio recorder, and the EX1 can't, so for those who NEED that, the EX1 is a non-starter. Right?

Tempest in a teapot. People are comparing a $6100 product against a $3100 product.

So you pay your money, and you take your choice. I needed both SDI and component out as well as firewire. So my choice was clear.
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And that is exactly the way people should approach this. Who cares if some magazine reviewer is going to claim that an EX1 owner's penis is technically 1/4" longer than yours if you buy an HMC150? Instead look at what the product does, and what it costs, and if you find that one does what you need and the other doesn't, then your choice is made, regardless of what anyone else says.
 
Barry_Green said:
For those who absolutely need HD-SDI, you can always get a $395 Convergent Designs NanoConnect HDMI->HD-SDI converter box.
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Yep, and I mentioned that.

Barry_Green said:
And what is missing? Timecode? The HMC150 has a true LTC timecode out jack. The EX1 doesn't even have that.
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First I've heard of it. Good to know.


Barry_Green said:
Heck, when it comes to that, the counterargument could go that the HMC150 can sync to an external timecode slate or dual-system audio recorder, and the EX1 can't, so for those who NEED that, the EX1 is a non-starter. Right?
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Exactly. Now you need the EX3. So the HMC is an even better bargain.

Barry_Green said:
And that is exactly the way people should approach this. Who cares if some magazine reviewer is going to claim that an EX1 owner's penis is technically 1/4" longer than yours if you buy an HMC150? Instead look at what the product does, and what it costs, and if you find that one does what you need and the other doesn't, then your choice is made, regardless of what anyone else says.
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Yep. Neither the HMC150 or EX3 were shipping when I had to make my purchase decision. I might have chosen differently. I really wanted to try the HMC150 since I liked my DVX so much, but I just couldn't wait for it. It's a LOT of camera for the money.
 
Just,

Thanks for posting the hi-res 720 version!

Did your original footage have those pauses/glitches in it or did those appear after you encoded it as a MOV? (One at 2-3 sec, one at 6-7 sec)

Thanks!
 
From all I've seen the EX-1 and 150 are close enough that the extra $$ for the EX-1 seems like tossing money into Sony's briefcase.
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This depends on what your markets are. If you are shooting for high-def channels, such as Discovery HD, "close-enough" doesn't cut it. You will not be able to use your 150 for anything but a small percentage of allowable footage. The EX1 apparently is rated at their "Silver" status level and is technically good enough for 100% program footage. So for many (such as myself) this is ALL the difference in the world for selecting a camera. If you're shooting weddings/corporate/indies/family vacations, etc. and there is no mandatory minimum specs required, I'm sure you're right that the 150 'close enough' and is a great value for the moolah. 1/3" chips, no matter what kind, ain't what the big boy high-def broadcasters want for a full HD program. You can only splice a small percentage of footage with those things. They would do me no good. And it would limit my market of stock footage as well.
 
because of the 4:2:0 and the higher bit rate, the ex makes much better quality footage compared to hmc-150(maybe allot better in some situations), hmc has cine gamma that avoids clipping that the ex doesn't have an equivalent of, hmc doesn't have rolling shutter issues which is a big advantage over ex no matter what your shooting, they both are good in low light, i think ex might be a bit better but not by too much(maybe only one stop), but the hmc have a very distinct advantage over the ex, the price:
1-you can have two hmc-150 for the price of the ex and i think that goes for accesories as well
(you can make a film with two hmc were you would have trouble with one ex1)
2-you can have a deck and a small raid to capture uncompressed or lighty compressed footage in a closed set that would be better than the ex footage.

or it can pay for a steadicam or something, it's a huge gap in price.

not the biggest fan of rolling shutter, but the ex3 although pricier, at least it has some intriging options to allot of lens selections, so at least it's trying to make an effort.

i think the talk should be between hmc-150 and 5dmkii, that would be more interesting.

the next upgrade to either cameras would be interesting.

too much rambling, sorry about that.
 
amrrahmy said:
hmc has cine gamma that avoids clipping that the ex doesn't have an equivalent of,
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Clearly, you don't own one. I can think of several ways to do this, including in gamma settings. If you've never been through the CineAlta picture manipulation menu, you don't have a clue what you're missing.
 
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