HMC150 versus DVX100?
- Thread starter lowep
- Start date
Michael Carter
Veteran
This is a joke post, right?
You're aware the DVX is a standard def camera with the ancient DV codec? And the HMC shoots 1080p (and 720p) with a modern codec that has far less visible compression... right?
You're aware you can actually shoot professional green screen shots with the HMC, that it has a wave form monitor, and that the tape vs. cards situation offers more than just a moving-parts free setup?
And that you have HDMI and component out, you can record 4-2-2 via HDMI, and... ummm, other than that, they're exactly the same - you can save FIVE HUNDRED BUCKS buying the DVX, too!
You're aware the DVX is a standard def camera with the ancient DV codec? And the HMC shoots 1080p (and 720p) with a modern codec that has far less visible compression... right?
You're aware you can actually shoot professional green screen shots with the HMC, that it has a wave form monitor, and that the tape vs. cards situation offers more than just a moving-parts free setup?
And that you have HDMI and component out, you can record 4-2-2 via HDMI, and... ummm, other than that, they're exactly the same - you can save FIVE HUNDRED BUCKS buying the DVX, too!
Mike Harvey
Veteran
I loved my DVX... but once I bought the HMC150 and started using it, I couldn't sell the DVX fast enough. It was great for it's time, but it's time has past.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Hey, the DVX is still a current model in Panasonic's lineup. There remains a market that is served by standard-def and/or tape, and the DVX works for that.
If you need tape and/or SD, the HMC150 won't get that job done.
If you need HD, the DVX won't get that job done.
So, lowep, if the DVX does what you need and you don't need the additional things the HMC150 does, it may be a good choice for you. But if you need HD, the DVX isn't the right choice for that.
If you need tape and/or SD, the HMC150 won't get that job done.
If you need HD, the DVX won't get that job done.
So, lowep, if the DVX does what you need and you don't need the additional things the HMC150 does, it may be a good choice for you. But if you need HD, the DVX isn't the right choice for that.
Thanks to your answers I am now slightly less confused about the differences between different generations of this system and hopefully less likely to waste serious money on a joke camera.
This statement from Wikipedia about the DVX100 is what confused me: "The camera records to tape, but third party developers have modified DVX100 cameras to dump raw high definition images to a tethered laptop".
This statement from Wikipedia about the DVX100 is what confused me: "The camera records to tape, but third party developers have modified DVX100 cameras to dump raw high definition images to a tethered laptop".
Check the DVX-specific board here, using up-converting software, some people have actually managed to get some pretty good looking HD footage out of the DVX. Now, obviously, it's not going to be as high quality as an HMC. But it may be good enough for you and reason to consider buying a DVX over an HMC, especially if you prefer tapes, or if your budget is tight.
I own both cameras, although I'm trying to sell the DVX, but one thing to consider is what sort of project you're shooting. The DVX-100 is a hardcore camera. It can take a pretty serious beating and (assuming you upkeep it properly) handle some situations other cameras couldn't. The HMC150, by comparison, feels plasticky and breakable. Mine hasn't broken yet, mind you, but I'm pretty sure the DVX would hold up better under harsh conditions. If you're shooting commercials or narrative stuff, that may not be an issue for you. But if you're traveling deep into the bush for some crazy documentary, you may need a camera that can take a few bruises. I'm shooting a doc sort of like that, and I lug the HMC around in a big hard case because I can't afford to have it break. With the DVX, I'd be more comfortable tossing it into a backpack or something.
(This is the part where some other forum members jump in and tell you never to "toss" a camera anywhere and that any camera will break if you don't treat it properly, but you see my point -- the DVX is a sturdier camera than the HMC.)
Mike Harvey
Veteran
There is a solid magnesium shell under the HMC's plastic outside. Trust me, it isn't going to break easy
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?155042-Buying-a-HMC151&p=1485923&viewfull=1#post1485923There was also a story of someone here dropping their HMC while going 100mph (serious) on the back of a motorcycle going down a dirt road in South Africa or something like that, and it work fine (save for a few scratches). It'll take a lot more abuse than people give it credit for.
pulpfiction007
Veteran
The statement about third party developers I believe is in reference to the Andromeda Mod DVX - They actually added a USB port to standard DVXs and developed a way to get the most out of the DVX sensors, which with their software, were able to achieve high def. The drawback is the part about being tethered to a laptop, and that the company that did this mod has since gone out of business. There are people selling Andromeda DVXs with the software, but I'd be worried about the fact that if you have an issue, who's going to help you.
The DVX when properly uprezzed or just SD with the right way to view the footage still looks pretty great IMO, but if you can afford the HMC150 go for that.
Thanks, taking all this into consideration looks like patience is best solution, as I guess unlike Ming Dynasty vases the going rate for a used HMC150 or HMC151 is likely to nosedive sooner or later, even though most people reading this probably hope that don't happen too soon.
pulpfiction007
Veteran
You might be waiting a while. The reason I say that is because the DVX100B still sells for $2399. Another older camera the XHA1s still goes for $2775, and the HMC150 was actually at it's lowest point ever a week ago at $2669 - it's since gone back up to $2795 (I think). It seems to me these cameras reach a minimum point and then they're unlikely to fall much more in the new market. Used is a much different story: In the private used market DVX100Bs are selling for a bit above or a bit below the $1000 mark and used HMC150s are in the $2000 range.
You have to remember that these cameras offer a ton of features right on board that make them great tools, despite having lower resolutions than their more modern counterparts. All 3 cameras I mentioned are not as high res as say an HMC40, or a modern high end consumer Sony, Canon, or Panasonic. The resolution is only one of many aspects that determine picture quality, though.
The DVX100B is STILL capable of great things. I was actually thinking about this the other day - Let's say you don't have a super fast computer or the latest leading class software - DVX footage will be so much easier on the cheaper computers that you could actually take the time saved in the basic editing process and use that time towards upscaling the DVX footage to it's maximum potential (I've seen some incredible stuff done in this manner by members here)
All this changes though if you have a great computer and software that makes AVCHD painless - then the workflow will be way smoother and faster than capturing tapes and later upscaling. It all depends on the budget though. Also one last note - There is something very organic/filmic to well shot DVX100B footage that not many cameras (even HD) have...I don't know how, and I don't know why but it's got IT.
Yes, cameras will depreciate in value over time but I think nosedive is a little harsh. I bought a used DVX100A about four years ago at what I thought was a good deal at $1200 usd. A year ago I sold it for $1000 usd when I picked up my HMC-150. There were a lot of cameras released in that time period and a lot of technological advances not to mention a shift towards HD production and a so called "DSLR Revolution". I made money and had a great camera to learn on. The point is, my total investment was $200 dollars over a period of three years ownership.
If you look at the loss of buying one new and selling it in a year, yeah, new cameras will come out and people will pay less for yours. The same holds true for buying a 2011 BMW off the lot. New models come out and you will sell it for less just for it being used.
I'm all for people daydreaming about what the future may hold in terms of new cameras and technology at affordable pricepoints. I do it myself. I do think however a great quality camera like the HMC-150, that is easy to operate, has pro features like histogram, zebra stipes, xlr inputs, fast accurate auto focus, and leica glass on the front isn't likely to "nosedive". Not sooner or later. A used one may go for a few hundred less next year than this year but I don't foresee any "nosedives".
Michael Carter
Veteran
I've used both cams extensively - I don't see a build quality difference. And the DVX seemed as "hard core" build-wise as any of the DV tape/twin XLR cams I used back in the day. They're all plastic-shell cameras with aluminum or magnesium frames inside, and minimal weather sealing.
Poke around these forums for the hundreds of DVX-centric posts about dropped frames, dirty heads, which tape to use and "should I only use one brand", head cleaning, humidity, cold, and transport problems. Personally, I'd much rather go into harsh conditions with a camera that didn't use a tape transport. The DVX was pretty robust for a DV transport camera, but man - not something I'd ever "throw in a backpack". Just my .02.
"I bought a used DVX100A about four years ago at what I thought was a good deal at $1200 usd."
agree it was a good deal!
OK so nosedive is a bit steep but surely you don't expect the price for used units to go up? Neither does Michael Carter who wrote on this forum a couple of weeks ago: "Well, we recently saw a $200 price drop on the 150 and it could slide down more next year" but maybe Michael you have changed your mind since then or I am quoting you out of context? You guys know more about this than I do so most likely you are right but by golly I hope you are wrong though obviously this is not relevant for people who need to upgrade today.
agree it was a good deal!
OK so nosedive is a bit steep but surely you don't expect the price for used units to go up? Neither does Michael Carter who wrote on this forum a couple of weeks ago: "Well, we recently saw a $200 price drop on the 150 and it could slide down more next year" but maybe Michael you have changed your mind since then or I am quoting you out of context? You guys know more about this than I do so most likely you are right but by golly I hope you are wrong
though obviously this is not relevant for people who need to upgrade today.
Mike Harvey
Veteran
There was a price drop for new HMC150's, just like there were for HPX170's... but it wasn't a huge price drop. And honestly, there might be a price increase short term given the tragedy that is going on in Japan where the cameras are made. But for used cameras, the HMC is probably going to hold onto it's value longer than the DVX simply because it's tapeless. A tape transport will wear out over time. That's a non-issue with the HMC, so it's less likely to need repairs over time unlike the DVX.
Michael Carter
Veteran
Not sure I get your drift here - yes, the price dropped a bit on the HMC, though not a really significant amount; will it drop more in the next year is anyone's guess. I don't expect used prices to go up for the DVX or the HMC, unless the earthquake cuts supply totally for new cams.
Michael Carter
Veteran
I don't think tapeless is nearly as important as the fact that the HMC blows the DVX away by every possible metric (and I loved my DVX). People still grab up DVX from the used market, the tape transport doesn't stop that. (Smart buyers do inquire about hours though). The HMC is a modern camera shooting at modern standards; the DVX is an SD cam with a clunky workflow and compression that gives you very little latitude for grading, keying or resizing (and regardless of what anyone may say about "uprezzing" DVX footage to 1080 - seriously. Come on. I've done it. Please.)
If you can score a useable DVX for under a grand and want to learn to shoot manual, want to learn how to tweak settings, need XLRs, you're doing only web stuff for the time being - hell yeah, it's an amazing, groundbreaking camera that blows away all the consumer DV stuff of the same era and gives you immense control for a beautiful picture (and a really nice audio recording chain to boot). You want to do effects, you want to get paid to do broadcast work... you may have to shoot a little higher.
pulpfiction007
Veteran
Yeah..this all real easy to say- If you've got the money for an HMC150, and a brand new computer that can handle AVCHD - Yes, It's obvious the HMC is the better camera - I mentioned uprezzing for those who can't afford $2000 to $2800 AND the extra cost for an at least semi-fast computer. I've seen the footage of an uprezzed DVX100B and it looks great as do the many films made with a DVX, so yeah SERIOUSLY.
$1000 for a used DVX is a lot better than not shooting anything at all.
8string
Well-known member
As an HMC 150 owner, I can say that if all you are shooting is for the web and DVD or home screens, you can still work for tape cheaper. so do it. In two or three years, if you want to move to HD, the prices will have fallen. if you need to project on a big screen, or just want to avoid the upgrade, buy HD now. Some people go cheap and buy trailing edge technology, some invest in leading edge, and stick with the camera longer. It really is all up to you.