HMC150 questions answered...

[Ed Kishel]

I am also weary re: the workflow. Although HDV is perfectly acceptable to my eyes, and everything cuts through it like butter- I hate capturing. Tape is dead. So AVCHD comes along onto SDHC cards, so problem solved right?

What time I save from digitizing is spent transcoding into a format I can edit in real-time. The front-page of Panny's FAQ white paper on AVCHD boldly claims- "it’s as easy as your digital camera- shoot, transfer, and edit!" There should have been allot of asterisks added after that statement

An hour to capture 1 hour of HDV, but how long to convert 1 hour of AVCHD to DVCPRO?

In addition, there has to be some loss in quality when converting AVCHD to something else that an NLE can handle natively. Not an issue though if the free Mainconcept app converts it to DVCPRO with ZERO loss.

Although HDV looks good (to me) and is easy to work with, I admit AVCHD is so much more efficient (in camera) and does look better. I am very intrigued in this camera- its upcoming release caused me to put the brakes on my Sony Z7U purchase. I dont want to have to buy an expensive intermediate codec or switch to FCP. If I have to wait for Vegas and PPcs3 to ingest it natively, by that time there will be a $300 rebate on the HMC150A model. Maybe thats a good thing.

 

[Quickbrownfox]

This camera is not good for those who work with FCP yet. I know Panasonic and Apple so at least it will cost a year to improve their workflow. Maybe in theory the codec is better than HDV but there is still grain in the footage of Barry and videomaker. For now I don't recommended the HMC 151 too mine students.

I will be at the IBC, and ask around.

 

[Katten.bjornen]

FinalCut and AVCHD

FinalCut and AVCHD

Testing Pansonic SD9 recording 25p mode AVCHD 13 Mb/s.
I found that using the Plugin for FCP 6.02-3 and FCP 6.04 at panasonic hompage for AVC-Intra that it support AVCHD too-
I found also that the best flow is to copy the whole "No Name" D card image to a HDD and using it as a source in the Log an transfer function in FDP. AS in P2 you can scroll throu the clip and select that part you want to transfer to Prores 422 ckips.
The transfer run in a 1:2 to 3 speed. If you need speed us the HDMI transfer card Blacmadic have it´s 1:1 ... I have tested it too

You gain size on the HDD by storing the source in orignal format and only tranfer that part you will use.
There have been problem with some level of dataflow in AVCHD in this transfer and it will be nice to know if this max transfer in the AVCHD spec
thar 150 use works in that flow.
As soon i get the 151 (PAL part of the world) for test
I will report it here.
I can report from testing SD 100 next week to.

 

[ryvac]

what are the outputs on the HMC150 & HPX170 again?

will my Marshall V-R70P-HDA monitor still be usable ?
or do I have to upgrade to the HDSDI?

 

[avenue]

Testing Pansonic SD9 recording 25p mode AVCHD 13 Mb/s.
I found that using the Plugin for FCP 6.02-3 and FCP 6.04 at panasonic hompage for AVC-Intra that it support AVCHD too-
I found also that the best flow is to copy the whole "No Name" D card image to a HDD and using it as a source in the Log an transfer function in FDP. AS in P2 you can scroll throu the clip and select that part you want to transfer to Prores 422 ckips.
The transfer run in a 1:2 to 3 speed. If you need speed us the HDMI transfer card Blacmadic have it´s 1:1 ... I have tested it too

You gain size on the HDD by storing the source in orignal format and only tranfer that part you will use.
There have been problem with some level of dataflow in AVCHD in this transfer and it will be nice to know if this max transfer in the AVCHD spec
thar 150 use works in that flow.
As soon i get the 151 (PAL part of the world) for test
I will report it here.
I can report from testing SD 100 next week to.

I found that using the Plugin for FCP 6.02-3 and FCP 6.04 at panasonic hompage for AVC-Intra that it support AVCHD too-


Well if this works then that is a great step in the right direction I think... thanks for thinking out of the box! yay upgrading to FCP 6 tonight hopefully I can test it out this weekend sometime

 

[avenue]

This camera is not good for those who work with FCP yet. I know Panasonic and Apple so at least it will cost a year to improve their workflow. Maybe in theory the codec is better than HDV but there is still grain in the footage of Barry and videomaker. For now I don't recommended the HMC 151 too mine students.

I will be at the IBC, and ask around.

Read the posts... FCP6 works and I am sure within a year the rest of the world will catch on like wild fire it's the future

 

[Katten.bjornen]

you need MacOs 10.4.11 or 10.5.4

 

[Quickbrownfox]

I know it works, but its only in ProRess. Not the ProRessHQ mode. Maybe this conversion bring in the grain. Or is it only me who think there is some grain in the footage with or without this conversion.

 

[avenue]

I know it works, but its only in ProRess. Not the ProRessHQ mode. Maybe this conversion bring in the grain. Or is it only me who think there is some grain in the footage with or without this conversion.

I dont know yet I ahve to try it this weekend once i upgrade my FCP5 to FCP6 then I can start experimenting.... but as of now I am just goin off what was written in prior posts I am actually pissed because all I have been able to see are screen shots.... thats why I requested vimeo yesterday but for now I guess I am screwed until I upgrade...

 

[Everts]

I also notice some grain in the footage , grain in the beach sky and also on the boat where he pans.Actually it looks more like artifacting.Is this because of the AVCHD codec or is it because of the AVCHD to dvcpro converter which I used to view the files on my PC @ a screen resolution of 1440 x 900.
This is ofcourse the first time I have seen any AVCHD footage from any avchd camera.
There was no artifacing noticeable,probably none, on the waves,sand and swamp which I tought looked pretty good .The night shot of the birds is pretty clean.
The 60p footage slowed down 41.67 % on a 24p timeline is just great.
Burned the footage on a dvd, SD ofcourse and the images look pretty sharp on a SDTV set.
Love the crocs but Barry could you please post some medium shots of people ?(if they dont mind posing ofcourse.)
and I'm a bit confused , is the 920X720 the 720p version of panasonic ?



PS:
Thanks for your hardwork and if you're ever the neighbourhood I'll buy you a beer so I can get you drunk and hold you hostage and demand a couple of hpx-2000 for your exhange.:thumbsup:

 

[drdimento]

Read the posts... FCP6 works and I am sure within a year the rest of the world will catch on like wild fire it's the future

We could see the material in both Edius Broadcast and FCP Studio 2 (whatever FCP version that is) and the latest Mac OS X? Just got this machine on Monday.

I also notice some grain in the footage , grain in the beach sky and also on the boat where he pans. Actually it looks more like artifacting. . . .

We saw grain too and our technical guru said it's either some kind of macro blocking or artifacting as you indicate. I just call it pixelating )

 

[Barry_Green]

1. From the HMC can I choose in and out points on a clip and be able to import those into FCP?

If you're going through Log & Transfer, yes. Someday when FCP has native file support you won't even have to import at all, you'll just plug in the SD card and have immediate access to every frame you shot. Until then, the Log & Transfer function might actually be the best way for you to go because it'll cut down on your transcoding time by letting you cherry-pick bits of clips.

2. I am confused on the 1080i compared to 720P. In general, and not just from the HMC or any HD camera, how do they compare. 720P is obviously progress, which is full frames, 1080i is interlaced but the resolution is bigger. What's better?

1080P. And the HMC150 does all three.

People have said the HMC is the 720p camera.

It excels at 720p, but it also does 1080p and 1080i.

So is that still nice looking HD? Will that fill the screen on a standard HDTV. or will it not? Kinda confused..

Do you have an HD, and have you watched broadcast HD? If you've watched the Super Bowl or Prison Break or Dancing With the Stars or American Idol or any HD broadcast on Fox or ABC, you've seen 720p. If you've watched CBS or NBC, you've seen 1080i.

I guarantee you 90% of the viewing audience could never tell the difference between 720p and 1080i. Of those who could, it'd be more due to seeing combing/edge artifacts on the 1080i broadcasts (especially annoying during something like basketball, where the painted lines on the court shimmer annoyingly; that never happens on 720p). The European Broadcast Union strongly endorsed 720p over 1080i, saying the days of interlace are past us.

But, 1080i has a "bigger number" and so people think it's "better". Oh well. Whatever. Doesn't really matter as the HMC does 1080i, 1080p, and 720p.

So the HMC can shoot 60p?

Yep.

So that means I can get better slow motion than out of my DVX 100B right?

Way better. Same fluid feel, infinitely sharper.

So is 60p like 120i ?

"p" is nothing like "i". 60i is nothing whatsoever like 30P, and 120i would be nothing like 60P.

 

[Barry_Green]

What time I save from digitizing is spent transcoding into a format I can edit in real-time. The front-page of Panny's FAQ white paper on AVCHD boldly claims- "it’s as easy as your digital camera- shoot, transfer, and edit!" There should have been allot of asterisks added after that statement

Not from their fault, from the NLE's fault. You can do exactly what they describe (and even skip the "transfer" step) if you use a native AVC-HD editor like Pinnacle Studio +. I expect to see all NLEs but FCP supporting native AVC-HD editing straight from the SD card sooner rather than later. I doubt FCP will ever do it, just like they never did for P2/DVCPRO-HD, but everyone else did, and I expect them to do it for AVC-HD as well.

Which means you could shoot 12 hours of AVC-HD on a 32GB SD card, plug it in and have instant access to all 12 hours of footage within 10 seconds. No conversion, no transfer, no importing, no hassle. We're not there today yet with all editors, but Vegas and EDIUS have native AVC-HD import already, it's just slow to work with unless you have a monstrously fast computer (except with lower-end editors like Pinnacle Studio, which somehow get reasonably good performance out of less-powerful hardware!) But we'll get there. Everyone will be supporting it natively, instantly (except perhaps for FCP, if their track record is an indication of future behavior).

An hour to capture 1 hour of HDV, but how long to convert 1 hour of AVCHD to DVCPRO?

40 minutes on my laptop using the EDIUS converter to CanopusHQ. About an hour for an hour to use the MainConcept DVCPRO-HD converter.

In addition, there has to be some loss in quality when converting AVCHD to something else that an NLE can handle natively. Not an issue though if the free Mainconcept app converts it to DVCPRO with ZERO loss.

You are correct. Which is why I'm hoping the NLE companies will get on board with native editing sooner rather than later. HDV shooters went through the Cineform/AIC conversion process until EDIUS and others showed how it's done, then Vegas 7 and others got on board, and now you can edit HDV easier without transcoding. AVC-HD will get there. But it took HDV a year or so before the NLE companies had it sussed out.

I dont want to have to buy an expensive intermediate codec or switch to FCP.

If you want to edit natively, why would you switch to FCP? I don't know this for sure but I'd be willing to bet that they'll be the last NLE to support native file import. They seem to have an agenda of demanding the world convert to ProRes in a Quicktime wrapper; everyone else seems content to let you edit whatever you shoot however you shot it. Maybe they'll surprise us though, I hope so.

If I have to wait for Vegas and PPcs3 to ingest it natively, by that time there will be a $300 rebate on the HMC150A model. Maybe thats a good thing.

Vegas already supports native ingest of many AVC-HD files, but not all. They seem to only really be committed to supporting files from Sony camcorders; it seems like they don't care all that much whether Panasonic or Canon files work or not. But eventually I expect them to have full proper native AVC-HD support from all brands.

As for CS3, don't count on it. But I'd bet *heavily* that CS4 will have it. Adobe's all over the AVC-HD format, their P2 implementation is excellent and they'll probably have fantastic AVC-HD support. Realtime performance depends on your hardware though. EDIUS also has current AVC-HD support: shoot to the SD card, plug in the SD card, and drag the files right to the timeline (no "importing", no "ingesting", no "converting", just edit right off the SD card if you want). However, EDIUS doesn't yet support the "PH" mode of the 150. I doubt any NLE does, except maybe Pinnacle 11. EDIUS does support PH mode in their CanopusHQ file converter, so I expect that they'll have full native support for all modes in their next revision.

PH is important for a lot of reasons. #1, it's full-raster 1920x1080 and 1280x720. #2, it's the only mode of AVC-HD that supports 720p. But most importantly, #3, it's designed to be the most easily editable. Keep in mind that the EDIUS converter is faster than realtime in converting PH mode 720p footage into CanopusHQ -- so not only is my dual-core laptop fast enough to support faster-than-realtime decoding, it actually supports faster-than-realtime ENCODING to another codec and even writing that file out! What that means to me is, when they support it natively in EDIUS and the only job it's doing is the decode, you'll probably have enough processor power to do TWO streams of AVC-HD PH-mode footage RIGHT NOW.

The future's probably a lot closer than anyone thought.

 

[shrigg]

what are the outputs on the HMC150 & HPX170 again?

will my Marshall V-R70P-HDA monitor still be usable ?
or do I have to upgrade to the HDSDI?

Yes the HMC150 will output HD component for your Marshall. It also outputs HDMI and standard RCA-style composite. No Y/C (S-Video) output.

 

[Barry_Green]

This camera is not good for those who work with FCP yet. I know Panasonic and Apple so at least it will cost a year to improve their workflow. Maybe in theory the codec is better than HDV but there is still grain in the footage of Barry and videomaker. For now I don't recommended the HMC 151 too mine students.

I will be at the IBC, and ask around.

Have you seen the footage played in its native format on an HDTV? I don't know about the videomaker footage, but I just shot some stuff using a Letus Ultimate, at night, with wonderful rich grainless blacks. At least, that's how it looks on my LCD TV played through HDMI. Can't speak for how it'll look after Voltaic or FCP or some other conversion gets through with it, but it looks fantastic.

There will always be some grain in any video footage from any 1/3" camera. I'd put the noise level of the HMC150 squarely up against an EX1 any day. It doesn't look as noiseless as a $48,000 HPX3000, but then again neither does an EX1. But compared to an HD100, XHA1 or HVX200, it looks practically grainless. And certainly far less grainy than film.

 

[Barry_Green]

what are the outputs on the HMC150 & HPX170 again?

Both support analog component, and RCA composite video.

150 has HDMI. 170 has HD-SDI.

will my Marshall V-R70P-HDA monitor still be usable ?

If it has component, then yes.

or do I have to upgrade to the HDSDI?

Only if you want to take advantage of the HD-SDI of the 170 (or use an HDMI->HD-SDI converter with the 150). But you could just use the component connections.

 

[Barry_Green]

Love the crocs but Barry could you please post some medium shots of people ?(if they dont mind posing ofcourse.)

That's next, shot a little stuff with a Letus Ultimate. People are tricky because you need to get releases. I got one release, waiting for the other. I don't think I have any mediums though, mostly closeups and wide-ish... these shots were mainly done to get some high-contrast work including some night shots with strong side lighting and super-deep blacks.

and I'm a bit confused , is the 920X720 the 720p version of panasonic ?

960x720 is the frame size of Panasonic's DVCPRO-HD. If you used Panasonic's AVCHD->DVCPROHD converter, that's the size you'd end up with. But that's not the size that AVC-HD gets recorded at; it gets recorded at 1280x720 (or 1920x1080, or, if you're using the 6mbps mode, 1440x1080).

Thanks for your hardwork and if you're ever the neighbourhood I'll buy you a beer so I can get you drunk and hold you hostage and demand a couple of hpx-2000 for your exhange.:thumbsup:

Make it root beer and we'll talk. But, hey, hold out for the 2700, not the 2000, and I'm glad to see you're going for a couple so you can give me one as part of the deal! :thumbsup:

 

[shrigg]

40 minutes on my laptop using the EDIUS converter.

To clarify: Is this converting to Edius HQ or DVCPRO HD as the OP asked?

Which means you could shoot 12 hours of AVC-HD on a 32GB SD card, plug it in and edit within 10 seconds. No conversion, no transfer, no importing, no hassle. We're not there today yet (except with lower-end editors like Pinnacle Studio) but we'll get there.

The main reason I am waiting to buy my new editing system. The current-generation Octo Mac *might* be enough computer to edit natively in FCP but we just don't know yet. Until I *do* know what works, I am willing to try other editors (EDIUS) and/or put up with the much-mentioned transcoding hell :cheesy:

 

[Barry_Green]

To clarify: Is this converting to Edius HQ or DVCPRO HD as the OP asked?

I went back in and edited my post to clarify. I got it wrong the first time.

The main reason I am waiting to buy my new editing system. The current-generation Octo Mac *might* be enough computer to edit natively in FCP but we just don't know yet. Until I *do* know what works, I am willing to try other editors (EDIUS) and/or put up with the much-mentioned transcoding hell :cheesy:

EDIUS may be fast enough to do it right now on a dual-core 2.4GHz laptop. The converter utility certainly seems to imply that it is. We just have to wait for the next version to know for sure.

 

[GreekStudios]

Is there any loss converting to DVCpro HD?