HMC150 or something like an hmc40 with a 550d?

P

parklins

New member
Hello,
I'm back after much deliberation and almost a phonecall away from buying an HMC151 but, I must say, while all the reviews and feedback on these cameras is amazing, and the specs speak for themselves (for the price) None of the footage I've seen is that mindblowing. Maybe I've been sucked into the dazzling DOF on the various DSLR forums and reviews but so much HMC150 footage is very ordinary. The best I saw all used DOF lens adapters. So, although the 150 is the safest overall option (my budget for the camera is 3 grand), utilising xlr audio and full 1080p and lens controls etc, it lacks the DOF. Plus, for the work I'll be doing a second camera would be really useful.
So, could anyone advise on a possible combination of 2 cameras where one would provide 1080P video, with good reliable audio (HMC40 with an xlr adapter?) and manual controls, for closer to 2 grand, that could be supplemented by something like a 550d for certain shots (low light, time lapse? etc). Where the two cameras would basically match, for anywhere in the region of 3 grand? or Am I being insane? It seems possible that by compromising low light etc on one, and form factor and audio on the other, you could end up with two cameras that would present an exciting combination.
Any help i'd be really pleased. I have found it very difficult to get my hands on a 150 without just ordering which is why I haven't bought one yet and which is why I keep coming up with alternative solutions
 
I use a 150 and a T2i; I've got a ton of Nikon glass for the Canon. I often use it exactly as you describe.

Getting the footage to cut well together takes some testing to find the looks you want. Beyond camera settings, you also have to keep in mind that cutting from a 150 shot to DSLR for DOF, you really need to watch your composition, backgrounds, etc - it's easy to have a shot that "technically" matches but still looks radically different. Maybe the audience won't see this, but it's disconcerting - my experience anyway, since I know they're different it's very easy to think "wow, I failed matching that" when in reality I perhaps should have less sky in the canon footage - things like that.

You can easily find all the differences between the HMC series cameras with some searching - HMC works great as an audio recorder, even on an all-dslr shoot - you'd want to make sure to have the XLRs (I believe on one of the HMC's it may be an add on, not sure). The main thing I recall from reading Barry's book (when he mentions a feature on one cam but not another) was every few pages thinking "damn, I'm glad I got the 150!"
 
About three weeks ago I did a shoot for a client in the DC area -- the primary camera being an HPX170 equipped with a Letus Ultimate and Zeiss ZF primes (21, 35, 50, 85). The "B camera" was an HMC150. An incidental extra, on hand almost by accident, was a 7D with a Nikkor 50mm f/1.8 AI (circa 1979, lowest distortion 50mm ever made).

In post -- almost all of the Panasonic footage was thrown out, mostly replaced with the 7D footage, the client went nuts with joy, and I'm now dealing with the headaches of referrals.

To put the above in context, this was political talking head and shaking hands stuff, it wasn't a fast action car commercial.

The issue here is that clients don't care about bit rates, long GOP vs. intra frame, CCD vs. CMOS, or what Jannard at Red thinks is man-enough to be serious. Clients care about liking what they see. In the above real world shoot-out, the clients were overwhelmingly cool to the initial cuts with the camcorder footage and overwhelmingly impressed with the exact same scripts cut with footage from a Canon HDSLR (equipped with a classic Nikkor lens -- that's important).

SO -- WITH THE ABOVE CONTEXT IN MIND -- relative to a generalist two-cam setup within your specified budget -- I'd recommend two Canon T3i cameras, a few prime lenses of your choice (50mm, 85mm are essential), a Zoom H4n, a quality lav and shotgun mic, and up to three daylight balanced, flicker free fluorescent light rigs. With the above and Premiere Pro CS5 -- I could produce almost anything for almost anyone.

And, finally, perhaps the most important part for someone getting started. There are probably about a dozen HDSLR video training options out there in addition to many different classes held all over the place. For the HMC150 -- there is one book and five hundred differing opinions on this forum. You mentioned not-impressive HMC150 footage -- and the reason is because there is a serious learning curve to the HMC150 -- it's easy to produce bad footage with a 200A/170/150.

So -- I wish you well in whatever you decide to do. If I was in the position you describe and starting out -- knowing what I know now -- I'd go with the recommendations I offered above. Use good lenses, learn editing -- and the above setup could carry you further than you may dare to imagine.
 
I hated trying to mix the HMC150 with DSLR footage and ended up selling the HMCs.

For a second camera consider another 550D with Magic Lantern to allow for unattended operation and a Zoom H4n for the audio. Sync in post using PluralEyes.
 
I do think matching different cameras is a pain, if they're being used in the same scene. There ARE shots where the HMC40 would look better and would be easier to get the shot - Deep focus shots with high detail. One of our members did a test with the 7D and the TM700 and the TM700 stood up and kicked the 7d to the curb in these types of shots...so the HMC40 would as well. That being said, the 7D will blow the HMC40 away in other scenes.
So I think your choice is actually very logical and would give you the best of both worlds (I've done a similar combo - GH1 and Canon HFS 200) I just wouldn't use them as a traditional 2 cam set up - as the others mentioned, it can be tough to get the look right. Use the 40 where it will shine and the DSLR likewise.
Also, having a traditional camcorder will free you up to do work where you just need a do it all type cam, without a bunch of extras. Like an event where you'd be moving around a lot for example, and don't want to deal with lens changes and so forth.
 
I like using my HMC's (both 40 and 150) for wider shots with deep focus and then Canon DSLR's for closeups. I've found it's not hard to match them up at all as long as you use the right camera (and lens) for each shot.
 
For me, it's all about what I am shooting not the camera. Yes, there are times when the 7D footage I have is just the thing. Then there's times when the 150 shines. I am currently, as I write this, working on a stage performance shoot, where we shot four cameras, one 150, one JVC GY-700, one 7d (mainly with a 2x extender on a 70-200 zoom all canon), and a new G2 with telephoto. By far, the best footage was the JVC 700. The 150 came next with the 7D being too noisy for a good blend. What I can tell you is that if I had to shoot this over I'd either shoot all JVC700s or all 150s. A tight telephoto of a performer on stage with a 150 or a 700 would be better than a similar shot with a 7D. Why? Because with a black backdrop DOF is non existent and razor sharp images of the performances are what we expect (except for FX). And I have very good Canon glass and a solid tripod under me. Matching footage is a nightmare (I'm currently taking a break while rendering after my millionth color correction). Yes, you can get really great footage with a 7D, but you can't put it on tv on a regular basis if that's your goal! It's great for web use. Is TV your goal? If so, buy a Letus or a AF100. If I was going to do it all over again today, I would simply save up and buy an AF100 if I wanted the best of both DOF & run and gun. Barring that, I've done very good work with my 150, people are very impressed, and I can shoot for hours with it. It has it's limitations (low light against the 7D) Being stuck with 12 minutes clips and all the ergonomic nightmares of my 7D for video is very frustrating. But again, what are you wanting to do with it? It's a tool, nothing more. Find the right tool for the job you are doing. Remember, as much as I like Phil Bloom and I have paid to study with him, he is getting paid to teach us all how to use HDSLRs and his work reflects it. The rest of the world has a mix of needs, and yes, doing lots of political headshots is a great use for an HDSLR or an AF100. You can make it work, but it's really a frustrating thing to do, and has it's own downsides. The cost of kitting out an HDSLR is high, I'm hear to tell you! I'm looking forward to adding the 160 or something like it to my 150 and 7D. But I find myself going back to the 150 more after spending a lot of time with the 7D. I want to make it work! I think my laziness with DOF work is a reason that I just instinctively grab the 7D. Plus it takes good stills, and it's a good cam/web video tool for road trips.

It sounds to me from your post, that you should save your money and get what you need. An AF100. A cross between an HDSLR & a 150. Sometimes it's better to buy the right tool, rather than what you can afford. Good luck!
 
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+1 to what 8string says... you really need to mention what and how you're intending to shoot when asking a question like this!
 
You Guys have totally opened my eyes and I appreciate everyones input. I'm not really closer to a definite answer, but I have a lot of much better questions.
Its difficult to say exactly what I expect to shoot, as versatility is important.
The primary purpose of the camera is to record Drama workshops in classrooms, and live, small scale theatre productions for output to DVD and the Web (for this reason I'm aware that I don't really need HD, but it seems shortsighted not to). The lighting would be totally natural.
I would need to record Interviews for feedback and would invest in a basic lighting rig appropriate to this (seperate thread/conversation).
It will also be used to record supplementary videos for use in the workshops (moving scenery from a car to be projected to create illusion of a travelling, for example...).
I have some experience filming live music, and would probably aim to do some of that to make a few quid so recording whole gigs, in available light, often using camera audio, and perhaps latterly also make music videos, lit/outdoor/live/no audio/abstract looking.
Added to this I provide visuals for arty installations so as you can see, Its going to be a busy machine.
Pulpfiction007 seemed to get where I was coming from. I am aware that the HMC151 is really solid but I would I be better off with an HMC40 (For covering my performances, where image quality is important to me, but expectations are basically very low) and something like a T3i or whatever would fit within my overall price range for interviews, and also more experimental stuff? My question essentially is: Am I being too greedy in expecting to be able to split my essential requirements up between 2 cameras and come up with more than the sum of all the assets of the HMC151 for the same price?
I plan to continue to add to the rig but 3 grand is pretty much my limit to begin. for that I could get an HMC151 on its own from Visual Impact with no change for a tripod, mic, batteries, memory cards, so i'd be going over budget to get properly started OR an HMC40 with a tripod, XLR adapter and mic, batteries, memory etc, maybe even with a few pence left to start saving for a DSLR, which I expect to be more interesting, knowing I don't need to worry so much about the audio or whatever because the works covered.
Soz about rambling on. And thanks again for paying any attention and helping me, and others in my boat, to clear up largely muddied waters. Its a very dense subject to approach from the outside but you guys cut through a lot of the bumf.
Cheers
 
Sounds like for many if not most of your uses you want deep DOF rather than shallow; and you likely want good low-light performance. I'd say HMC150... and save up for the DSLR later.
 
Thanks for all the insight everyone. In the end I have managed to have a play with both an HMC150 and a 7D. The 150 was impressive but, for the flexibility I require, I found it a bit too serious. I couldn't take it on the park on a sunny evening without turning heads, or very easily point and shoot from a car or something in the way the canon would. the 150 is Probably better for work, but not as inspiring as the 7D, and at this stage, while I'm aware that I might need to end up with both, in the meantime I can just hire one or something and I'd rather own the camera that inspires me more, and enjoy the images and just deal with the shortcomings till they are overwhelming. So thanks for all the help. I'll post some stuff when I'm up and running....
 
I've had the 150 for a little over a month now and I can say that it is not easy to get the best footage out of the camera, I am still trying to figure it out. I also use a t2i...I agree with what others have said regarding composition, that is key to getting the cameras to match fluently
 
ive owned all 3 150,40,550d

id go with hmc40 + dslr

thats what id be doing. i have an hmc40 and im waiting t get a gh2. hmc40 solves my audio issues & deep shots, gh2 solves my dof & low light.

my af100 does it all. heheh. but i rent my af100 out and tend to work with handy cameras on my own project for now.
 
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