hmc150 hmc151 hmc152.... differences?

T

tikigod19

Well-known member
Hi all,
I know its going to be about the recording modes and pal/ntsc etc but could someone clarify what the difference is between the different models?

I'm in the Uk and after getting one to use with a GH13 and a canon 60d (do you think the footage will mix well?)

Many thanks
 
You should check out my recent threads, as I've been asking and researching basically the exact same questions.

That said, your basic answer (as I understand it)

HMC 150 - US model HMC. Shoots in 24p and 60p (NTSC only) , 60hz
HMC 151/2/4 - UK/EU/AU model HMCs. PAL/NTSC switchable, can shoot 24p,25p, 50p, and 60p, 50/60 hz switchable
HMC 153 - Asia moden HMC. Shoots in 25p and 50p (PAL only), 50 hz

Of course they offer other framerates (30p, etc.) I'm just highlighting the different bits.

Not sure about GH13, but I've been contemplating a 60D or 7D along with the HMC150 and the consensus seems to be those will blend nicely. There are some videos in the "footage" section of the HMC board that were shot with a HMC150 and 7D (for video, 7D and 60D are basically the same) and it looked good to me, not a big contrast in terms of which camera shot what.
 
Not quite correct. Close, but not, because the HMC151 is the only PAL/NTSC switchable unit. The 152, 153, an d154 are all 25p/50p PAL only.
 
Thanks for your replies.

So the 152, 153, 154 All do 1080 25p, 1080 50i, 720 50p but they're from different parts of the world?

I don't need it to shoot 30&60 so presumably the others will be cheaper?
 
I'm torn between the 152/3/4 and Sony z5 as I've read the Sony is better in low light. I used fx1's for years and really want to improve on the low light and ideally zoom length
 
There are several people importing the 2/3/4 versions in to the Uk, and they 'are' cheaper but you won't get a warranty from Panasonic. The importers are offering a 1 year warranty which (in the case of at least one of them) means they need to send it back to the source territory to get it repaired under warranty.

Contrast that with the 151 officially imported and coming with a 3 year Panasonic warranty but of course they do cost a few quid more :(

HMC 151
£2350 + vat. http://www.proav.co.uk/Cameras-Camcorders/AVCHD-Camcorders/p19169_sc773.aspx
£2324 + vat. http://www.creativevideo.co.uk/public/view_item_cat.php?catalogue_number=panasonic_ag-hmc151
£2379 + vat. http://www.jigsaw24.com/product-details/x227asa/panasonic-ag-hmc151-avchd-camcorder
£2349 + vat. http://www.videokit.co.uk/3625-panasonic-ag-hmc151-hd-camcorder.html

HMC 152
£2278 inc VAT http://www.provisualworld.com/acatalog/Panasonic-AG-HMC151.html#a437

Now, to answer your questions, if you shoot what I think you shoot then the 152 will do you very well.....

It sounds as if you like the GH1 :) The HMC and GH1 should mix without too much trouble.

You may need to play with the sharpness / saturation / contrast settings on the 60D to get them to match. I've been doing this sort of testing with the 5D2 and 7D so I know it's doable. You'll find that the 15x has a little more noise than a DSLR but you may well be surprised how well the HMC stands up against the DSLRs i low light when you need more than a millimetre of DOF. In terms of exposure I've found the HMC at 0db is equal to f2.8 & ISO 800 on the Canon, so that should give you an idea of where things are at. For ceremonies, speeches and in particular the first dance (where you need good DOF for a fixed camera) the HMC does a fantastic job. When ever you get a little noise (6db is not too bad, 12db needs some noise reduction, forget 18db) use Neat video to clean it up and all is good.

The biggest gotcha when using the HMC compared to DSLR (GH
 
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thanks very much for your detailed reply. Did it end abruptly? Seems to be half way through a sentence?
To be honest I've never really got into using the GH1 and 60D for video yet but I like the idea of using the full range of lenses I have available.
I'm sure theres a magic mix of settings for canon DSLR's to matche them up to the panasonic somewhere online so as long as its not a known issue that they don't mix very well then I wont be put off by that.

If I'm overly impressed by the HMC150 then I may end up getting a 2nd one and just using the canon or panasonic for narrow DOF shots and low light performance.

Really I need to get out and practise with the DSLR in a variation of conditions to decide whether I'd be happy with it as a main cam whilst my less experienced operator uses the HMC150....

Does anyone know how the 150 compares to something like the sony FX1 in low light? I really want to make 100% sure I'm not going backwards in terms of low light performance which is something I dont think the FX1 does brilliantly.
 
Barry_Green said:
Not quite correct. Close, but not, because the HMC151 is the only PAL/NTSC switchable unit. The 152, 153, an d154 are all 25p/50p PAL only.
Click to expand...

Ah, apologies! I saw something on amazon.co.uk that I thought said the 151/2/4 were all the same unit.

Honestly, if it's possible to make a switchable PAL/NTSC model and sell it at the same price as the 150, why do the other models even exist?
 
tikigod19 said:
thanks very much for your detailed reply. Did it end abruptly? Seems to be half way through a sentence?
Click to expand...

Yup! The internet (or at least the route to this site) went down on me about that time and it looks like we got half a message through ;)

I was going on to say that the biggest gotcha about the HMC compared to the DSLR is the white balance system. The HMC has three W/B switch positions, A, B & PRST. PRST can toggle between 3.2K and 5.6K. A & B are custom settings that it remembers until you change them. However, unlike the DSLRs, you don't get to dial in a Kelivin (K) temperature. You need a white sheet of paper (or something similar) to point the camera at, and of 4 HMCs we use I very much doubt we ever get a perfect white balance from all 4 of them at the same time. If there is ONE feature I would PAY Panasonic to upgrade on the HMC it would be the ability to set a K temperature so that I know all cameras match perfectly in difficult lighting.

In terms of low light, I think the HMC does an excellent job. People talk about the low light capabilities of DSLR but conveniently forget that you need fast glass, often wide open to achieve the results they so loudly proclaim. If you need something more telephoto AND reasonable DOF (i.e. you are filming some one giving a speech who may be moving around a little) then the HMC will do an admirable job @ 6db and at worst case 12bd with some noise reduction. You can always add a light to it if things get *really* dark. We use Comer 1800s.

One thing I would mention is that the HMC does get a little soft when zoomed all the way in and the iris is wide open. At first I thought we were just mis-focusing but tests showed it really does soften up a little bit.

You can get batteries from China that will last ~240 mins for about £20 compared to the Panasonic that is about £180. You get full function and minutes remaining.

In terms of low light, the HMC is going to be hard to beat. I looked at almost all the alternative cameras around when I bought my HMCs, including all the Sony models. The only one that came close to changing my mind was the EX1 but the price (especially with memory cards) was outside the budget for multiple cameras and memory cards.
 
custerc said:
Honestly, if it's possible to make a switchable PAL/NTSC model and sell it at the same price as the 150, why do the other models even exist?
Click to expand...
Because originally the European 151 was a lot more expensive than the others. I don't know if that's still the case, since the HMC150's been out a couple of years and we've had such an upheaval in the financial sector and currency markets and all that, so maybe exchange rates have equalized out the price differences. But originally the HMC151 was much more expensive than any other model.
 
Exact thanks very much for that.

I currently use the White paper method so this is not a disaster although what you mentioned would have been nice.

I'm torn between the hmc150 and Sony z5.

I've read but not had it confirmed that the z5 is superior in low light. Other advantages are better zoom range and auto audio control. Disadvantages, I prefer sd to cf cards and z5 has CMOS instead of 3ccd which is a nightmare at weddings.

Did you consider the z5 when deciding?
 
Barry_Green said:
Because originally the European 151 was a lot more expensive than the others. I don't know if that's still the case, since the HMC150's been out a couple of years and we've had such an upheaval in the financial sector and currency markets and all that, so maybe exchange rates have equalized out the price differences. But originally the HMC151 was much more expensive than any other model.
Click to expand...

Ah, that makes more sense. I think they are about the same price now, but I might also be doing the conversion wrong. Math has never been my strong suit...
 
i'm getting close to just clicking buy and seeing what its like, but I'm worried. On most of the cheaper sites I read 'AG HMC151 Features - 1080 50i / 720 50p & 25p'

it does 1080 25p too right? As does the 153, 154 etc?
 
oh and what does 'over 50i' mean when referring to the 25p? I understand it means it doesnt shoot native 25p but does the GH1? This would probably be what I'd mix it with. Is there much difference to the naked eye between 25p native and 25p over 50i?
 
It means that the 25p is written in a 50i wrapper within the AVCHD file. Yes it's 25p, and if you are using a reasonable NLE you'll be completely unaware of the 25p over 50i wrapper issue. It's all encoded and decoded for you. It's 25p. Yes the GH1 does 25P too.
 
does the Gh1 do 25p in a 50i wrapper also?

Any thoughts on sony EX1? Have had that suggested as a more expensive but better option to the HMC150.
 
Not sure about the wrapper on the GH1, but in any case it's not something I have ever had to worry about. FCP just imported it all without any problems at all.

The EX1 was the one camera at the time I though long and hard about before going for the HMCs. I like the EX1, the LCD is nicer, the image is slighter sharper but the three things that killed it for me were :
1) The cost of the camera - I knew I would end up buys several (4 in the end) and the extra cost was significant
2) The cost of the SxS cards was huge compared to the SD cards. If I had gone the EX1 route there is no way I could have got 4 cameras and enough memory cards
3) It is CMOS based and (even with DSLRs today) I hate the flash banding you get from a CMOS. The Rolling shutter is survivable most of the time by adjusting shooting styles, but the flash banding drives me nuts. And guess where you get a lot of flash? Weddings & Events!

As I said in another thread, even allowing the extra cost, if I were starting today I would look seriously at the Canon FX300 / 305. It IS a lot more expensive but at least it takes CF cards instead of proprietary cards.

All-in-all the HMCs do a fine job and for what they cost I really don't see a better camera for events, especially in low light, even today. You have to spend significantly more money to better it, especially when you take the cost of memory cards in to account. We 'are' moving more towards DSLR but for times you need to roll continuously we still use the HMCs.
 
what memory cards to the EX1 take then? I thought it was standard SDHC?
The CMOS thing does definitely worry me and a 2nd hand EX1 still seems to cost very nearly twice the price of a new HMC151.
Like you I'll probably end up buying lots more as I did with the FX1 so cost is more important in the long term.

What filming over the 4GB limit? I dont use FCP as I'm on PC (currently using premiere pro cs4) do the seperate files automatically join together leaving NO gap whatsoever? If so do you think this will be the case with premiere pro?

Also does 720 footage use less room on the card? If so whats the longest 25p you could shoot on a card before cretaing a new file with both 1080 and 720 modes?

Sorry for all the questions. I think its going to have to be the HMC at the moment but want to make sure there are no nasty surprises when I buy!
 
tikigod19 said:
what memory cards to the EX1 take then? I thought it was standard SDHC?
Click to expand...

The Sony uses SxS cards, though there are now some SxS to SDHC card adapters. Some people use the adapters while others won't use them because of reliability fears when shooting none-repeatable events. The original adapters were picky about what SDHC cards could be used and there were reports about recording being dropped etc. My understanding is that much of those problems are history but you'd need to ask a number of people using this solution before you could be happy it was reliable enough to use. SxS cards weren't quite as expensive as P2 cards, but they weren't far off it when I was buying.

tikigod19 said:
What filming over the 4GB limit? I dont use FCP as I'm on PC (currently using premiere pro cs4) do the seperate files automatically join together leaving NO gap whatsoever? If so do you think this will be the case with premiere pro?
Click to expand...

Not absolutely sure about CS4, but I think you still need to transcode AVCHD footage. The program doing the transcoding should put things back together again without any gap / lost frames etc. I've never had any problems at all.

tikigod19 said:
Also does 720 footage use less room on the card? If so whats the longest 25p you could shoot on a card before cretaing a new file with both 1080 and 720 modes?
Click to expand...
720 footage takes the same space on the card because it uses all the available 25mb/s codec, so in theory the 720 footage should have fewer artefacts etc. However, once transcoded 720 footage does take less space on your PC's hard disk.

We get approx 99mins on a 16GB card, so you should be able to work things out from there.

tikigod19 said:
Sorry for all the questions. I think its going to have to be the HMC at the moment but want to make sure there are no nasty surprises when I buy!
Click to expand...

No problem. Asking questions is always a good idea when spending this amount of money.
 
you mention transcoding the files... thats basically converting them to another format isnt it?

I dont currently do that with my GH1 AVCHD (mts) files but like I said they are quite sluggish in premiere pro cs4. Is that the same file format as the HMC150?

Trying to get the 720 motionjpeg mov files from the Gh1 to import without crashing my CS4 is another matter.... :(
 
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