HMC 40 first use

The TM300 doesn't shoot in the PH mode. Nor does it have component out, etc.

To be honest, there are some material differences between the 300 and the 40 that are relevant to picture quality.
 
> The TM300 doesn't shoot in the PH mode.

Because Panasonic intentionally have crippled it. Canon camcorders shoot at 24 Mbit/s, thank you very much.

> Nor does it have component out, etc.

It has composite and HDMI.

> To be honest, there are some material differences
> between the 300 and the 40 that are relevant to picture quality.

I would think that sensors with better performance go to pro division.

But this is what I said: do you want to pay extra $800 for added features and maybe -- maybe! -- a little bit better performance? Some may want to do just that. After all, the HC1 was released in 2005 at $2K MSRP. But then it quickly dropped to $1.4K.
 
I frame the issue as not what anyone's guess at what Panasonic has done to cripple one cam over the other, but what each camera in its present form can produce.

I don't have any inside information on what Panasonic has done to cripple anything.

I'm just comparing features.

I've had six cams in a form factor similar to the 300. None have produced anything qualitatively comparable to what the 40 can produce.

Except for low light issues, and some other issues which I consider minor, it compares favorably to the 150 in my view.
 
David S. said:
I see a material difference in the cams
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You have opened both cams up? Checked out the lens imperfections with a microscope? Found a grade number on a chip?

Anyway, I am not arguing with you. I have stated myself that the 40 has more features. And possibly offers slightly better quality. And possibly, Panasonic intentionally left out some features on the "300" to separate the products. Whether one hates Panasonic or not for doing that, there is a difference in the cameras, and the price difference is not that huge. It can get larger when the TM300 drops to say $800 or even $600 in 3-4 months.
 
No, I'm comparing footage.

And I said, I don't have any inside information.

I shot with six consumer AVCHD cams and the 40, and the 150, and the 170, and the 200 and the 300.

That's my reference.
 
Cranky said:
I am willing to wait some more to see what Canon is going to offer. It must replace the GL-2 with an HD cam
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Er... they did, years ago. It's called the XHA1...

On the other hand, the TM300 is being sold for about $1,200-1,300. Is paying extra $800 for the same lens/sensor with added pro features too much?
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Depends on whether you need those added pro features. If you're a pro, the answer is yes, and grin all the way to the bank at how cheaply you just got a pro camcorder. If you're a hobbyist, maybe those features aren't worth it to you. If you're a filmmaker, why on earth would you buy something that doesn't do what you want, just cause it's cheaper? 1080/24p -- that's a defining feature. Either you need it or you don't. If you need it, the 40 is the one to get, and who cares whether it's the same lens or sensor or not? The 300 doesn't do it, the 40 does, so therefore the 40 is the one to get. But if you don't need that, save some dough and get the 300. Same with the 3-year warranty, the PH mode, the waveform, the XLR option, the component output terminal, and everything else the 40 does that the TM300 doesn't.

For its price the 40 is not bad at all
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I think the 40 is pretty darn awesome for the price. I'm much happier with it than I expected to be, let's put it that way!

Lots of people shoot with the FX7/V1 and many of them are happy with these cams. The 40 should not be much less sensitive than these Sony cams. I wish someone tested them in a shootout.
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I can't find any comparisons either. The only thing I found was where someone said that as compared to the PD150, the V1U is like shooting with an ND1 filter on at all times. Which is about 3 stops. Which might put it in the same sensitivity ballpark as the HMC40.

However, if we're talking about a comparison, let's remember: the V1U costs $3500! It's in a whole different class than the HMC40.
The FX7 is more price-competitive, and has a similar chipset, but it doesn't do 1080/24p or 1080/30p or 720p-anything and it shoots HDV to tape, it doesn't have a provision for XLRs... it's a consumer camera sold by the consumer division. So I'd say that if you want to compare against the FX7, you should compare the TM300 against the FX7. As for the V1U, if the HMC40 doesn't come out as well against it, then that's what the additional $1500 was for. And if it *does* compare well against the V1U, then that's just embarrassing for the V1U, right?
 
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Cranky said:
> you would be crazy to not get the 150

I know, but as I am not a pro, spending $3,5K on a hobby does not bode well with the wife. Since there is no burning need to buy a camera right now, I am willing to wait some more to see what Canon is going to offer. It must replace the GL-2 with an HD cam, just like Panasonic has replaced the DVC30 with the HMC40.

As to the 40, it is inferior to the 150 while being only $1000 cheaper (if you count the XLR adapter, which is built into the 150). On the other hand, the TM300 is being sold for about $1,200-1,300. Is paying extra $800 for the same lens/sensor with added pro features too much?

For its price the 40 is not bad at all, the whole other question whether one is willing to accept its performance regardless of the price. Lots of people shoot with the FX7/V1 and many of them are happy with these cams. The 40 should not be much less sensitive than these Sony cams. I wish someone tested them in a shootout.
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Cranky,

It looks like we are in the same boat. :beer:

The HMC-150 is more in line of what I want, but can't justify the cost with the wife. Even the HMC-40 will prove to be hard to convince the wife and that's after the economy gets better...

In looking at the total costs, camera + other stuff, it's looking about like this:


HMC-150:
Camera $3,500
Battery $170 (Necessary with the HMC-150, but not withe the HMC-40)
Shotgun Microphone $200
Camera Bag $100
-------------------------------
Rough Total $3,970 (Say about $4,000)


HMC-40:
Camera $2,000
XLR Adapter $300 (Not needed with the HMC-150)
Wide Angle Adapter $200 (Not needed with the HMC-150)
Shotgun Microphone $200
Camera Bag $100
-------------------------------
Rough Total $2,600



Bob Diaz
 
> Er... they did, years ago. It's called the XHA1...

The XH-A1 is in another league. The GL-2 was Canon's counterpart to the DVC30. The XH-A1 is a counterpart to the 150/170/200 in features and in price. Canon has to replace the GL-2 (which it still offers, unbelievable!) with something like the HMC40. It can do exactly what Panasonic did: take the HF-S with its 58mm lens thread (same size as on the GL-2, sure, this is just a coincidence) and stick it into the reworked GL-2 body.

> 1080/24p -- that's a defining feature. Either you need it or you don't.
> If you need it, the 40 is the one to get, and who cares whether it's
> the same lens or sensor or not? The 300 doesn't do it, the 40 does,
> so therefore the 40 is the one to get.

The SD100 does it too, and I got it for cheap. Damn small 1/6-inch sensors though.

> But if you don't need that, save some dough and get the 300.
> Same with the 3-year warranty, the PH mode, the waveform,
> the XLR option, the component output terminal, and everything
> else the 40 does that the TM300 doesn't.

I am not arguing, this is what I said too: it is whether one is willing to pay extra $800 or so for these extra features or not. So far, I think that this is not a huge price for a better form factor and additional features.

> I think the 40 is pretty darn awesome for the price.
> I'm much happier with it than I expected to be, let's put it that way!

Right, but knowing that the HV20/30/40 has a larger sensor gives a sour taste to this lollypop. Let's run a poll: a 3MOS 1/4-inch system vs. a single 1/2.7-inch sensor. I know what I would prefer. As to the HMC40 delivering markedly better image than the TM300, so far I haven't seen footage from the HMC40 which to my eyes was better than this, shot with the TM300: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luQubVABroQ&fmt=22

> However, if we're talking about a comparison, let's remember: the V1U costs $3500!
> It's in a whole different class than the HMC40.

This is just because Sony feels it can charge this much for it. It is basically the FX7 with XLR/mic, progressive recording and extra menu options. The FX7 goes for $2K, which is a fair price for it.

> The FX7 is ... a consumer camera sold by the consumer division.

The AG-HSC1 was (still is?) sold by the pro division, what is professional about it, compared to the SD1? I don't buy "this camera sold by pro division hence it is a pro camera" mantra. The FX7 is good enough for those who don't need progressive and can live without XLR, and there are many of those. The FX7 has a very nice 3.5-inch display and manually controlled ND filters which you consider a pro feature. It even has a handle with a very decent and relatively large built-in mic, not something pulled directly off a consumer cam.

Uh, and by the way, I can buy a third-party battery for the Sony for about $25-30, while Panasonic charges premium for "secure" OEM batteries.

If I did not want progressive and did not want tapeless I would already have owned the FX7. But I want progressive and tapeless. Currently I have it in my tiny SD100 for one fifth of the price of the HMC40, and I am willing to wait for Canon to offer something similar to the HMC40. Canon already has 24 Mbit/s recording on its consumer cams, so all it needs is native progressive and a larger camera body.
 
Cranky said:
>

If I did not want progressive and did not want tapeless I would already have owned the FX7. But I want progressive and tapeless. Currently I have it in my tiny SD100 for one fifth of the price of the HMC40, and I am willing to wait for Canon to offer something similar to the HMC40. Canon already has 24 Mbit/s recording on its consumer cams, so all it needs is native progressive and a larger camera body.
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Hi Cranky,

What do you want the camera for? If it's for professional use, it makes no sense to wait. Get a 150 and start making some money :grin:
 
Cranky said:
As to the HMC40 delivering markedly better image than the TM300, so far I haven't seen footage from the HMC40 which to my eyes was better than this, shot with the TM300: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luQubVABroQ&fmt=22
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How can you definitely gauge the footage from the HMC40 or distinguish it from the TM300 based on youtube?

I just don't follow this approach or logic.

There are so many variables that take the mts raw to youtube that make a conclusion as to quality fairly subjective.

Even the comments below your example indicate that Panasonic's SD9 with 3CCD is much better than this image.

I gauge my views in footage side by side with the same or near identical settings
 
shphotovideo said:
Did a quick side by side of the HMC40 and HV20.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyylDDvifak

I know YouTube is not the best for quality. I can make a link to the file for download if anyone wants. Also can do more specific tests, just let me know.
Click to expand...


Hi, thanks for doing that comparison

Would it be possible to upload a segment of the native unprocessed footage to a free hosting site? (e.g. megaupload.com, mediafire.com , etc...)
 
shphotovideo said:
Did a quick side by side of the HMC40 and HV20.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyylDDvifak

I know YouTube is not the best for quality. I can make a link to the file for download if anyone wants. Also can do more specific tests, just let me know.
Click to expand...
Nice, thanks!

Would be great if you could compare them in low light, setting both to the widest lens and 0dB gain. If you don't know how to set the HV20 to 0dB, I can explain it.
 
shphotovideo said:
Did a quick side by side of the HMC40 and HV20.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyylDDvifak

I know YouTube is not the best for quality. I can make a link to the file for download if anyone wants. Also can do more specific tests, just let me know.
Click to expand...

You have the right idea, but could you do it as a split screen with one of the images shifted to the side so that the split shows the same half as the other side. For example, the split shows only the left side from both cameras.

I'd love to see the full sized image.


Bob Diaz
 
PDR said:
Hi, thanks for doing that comparison

Would it be possible to upload a segment of the native unprocessed footage to a free hosting site? (e.g. megaupload.com, mediafire.com , etc...)
Click to expand...

Sure, I will figure out something.

Cranky said:
Nice, thanks!

Would be great if you could compare them in low light, setting both to the widest lens and 0dB gain. If you don't know how to set the HV20 to 0dB, I can explain it.
Click to expand...

I don't know how to do the gain on the HV20. Also what type of low light, single bulb, outdoors, etc?

BobDiaz said:
You have the right idea, but could you do it as a split screen with one of the images shifted to the side so that the split shows the same half as the other side. For example, the split shows only the left side from both cameras.

I'd love to see the full sized image.

Bob Diaz
Click to expand...

Ok, will put something together.

Also have a Sony HD1000 that I will try to test as well as a Sanyo HD1000 (funny they both have the same model number).
 
shphotovideo said:
I don't know how to do the gain on the HV20. Also what type of low light, single bulb, outdoors, etc?
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Any type of low light when the HV20 starts to struggle. Here is what you do. Zoom out both camcorders first.

For the HV20, you need to have the MiniSD card. Get one, insert into the camera, then turn on "simultaneous recording of still images" mode, this allows you to press Photo button in video mode to snap stills. After you've done that, half-press Photo button - the camera should display current shutter speed and aperture.

If you got the above right, go on. Switch to shutter priority mode (Tv). Chose and lock shutter speed, say 1/60. Now invoke the local menu -- or whatever it is called -- with the joystick and lock Exposure. Now half-press Photo button. If it is dark enough you will see aperture F1.8, but the camera does not display gain. Now DECREASE exposure by moving the slider to the left. After each click half-press Photo button. What value is there? If it is still F1.8, then the iris is wide open and gain is applied. Keep decreasing exposure until you get F2.0. Stop here. How increase exposure one click. Check again: F1.8. This is your widest iris with zero gain. If you have reached the left end of the scale and you are still getting F1.8 then it is too dark and you still have gain applied. Add more light and repeat. I know, it is a pain.

On the HMC40 set shutter to 1/60 and open iris until it reads OPEN with zero gain.

Now you can shoot a video with both cams. Which one is darker? Which one is noisier?
 
@Cranky:

I suggest you stop comparing features, numbers and images and simply get a camera and have some fun with it. If you don't like it, sell it and get another one. Or simply wait forever and never get anything done.

Cameras don't do great work, people do. Look at vimeo, there are many awesome videos shot with the HVX, HMC, HPX, Z1, EX-1, V1U, FX7, XH-A1, HV20, HV30, 5D MK II, GH1, D90 whatever. Stop talking and get creative.

Addendum:
I see you're labeling yourself as computer geek, now that explains very well why you're comparing features so much ;)
 
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Nice pailes. I agree. The camera doesnt make it the person using it does. Hand someone a cinealta or a varicam doesnt mean that there stuff is gonna look good. Shoot with what you like and make it look good and no one will care if it was shot on a red or a flip.
 
pailes said:
@Cranky:

I suggest you stop comparing features, numbers and images and simply get a camera and have some fun with it. If you don't like it, sell it and get another one. Or simply wait forever and never get anything done.
Click to expand...

Well stated.
 
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