Hissing with New Mic

The Mackie 1202 is a decent mixer, but, once again, it's aimed at the music community, lots of sub-mix routing, 3-band EQ, etc. (and newbs will be tempted to "play" with it, usually to the detriment of their sound). It also requires AC power, so will be completely useless in a run&gun situation. Also, to my ears, it is a bit screechy, and the preamps are a bit noisy for production sound applications. But, for $100 to $200 (used) it could be a viable option

What I want out of a production sound audio mixing unit is:

Quiet mic pres
Phantom power
Little or no tonal coloration
Simplicity of use
Long, accurate audio level meters
Flexible audio routing/monitoring
Reliability
Durability
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I haven't noticed the noise but then I wasn't using them for production work, also remember what he's feeding. I have heard them described as wooden, they are not "great" but they are pretty "great for the money". I agree about not wanting tonal controls (well except in the hands of a seasoned pro, but then they wouldn't use them much) but it's really hard to find a cheap mixer with out them unless you build it your self.
Yes you cant do run and gun but if your going to put caps (and low ones at that) on your spending then you can get a lot more quality for the $ if batteries are not a requirement. And he's starting out and doing shorts, limitations are probably a good thing.

Personally I think one of the big problems with a lot of indi's is that you can "do" just about anything. The catch is you can't do it well, so they do shots that they couldn't have dreamed of 10 years ago and do them almost OK. FX's shots and CG are like pregnancy, there is no part way. It's either all the way or nothing, and so many of the tools get you part way. Folks use them and it's worse than if they just came up with an alternative.

Anyway 99% of all shots in all movies are done with in easy access of AC, and 100% of most films are done that way. If you don't count wild action shots that are MOS anyway there are just not many places where it's a problem. Even in a car you could use one of those cigarette lighter converters. You just have to plan around it. The up side is a 1201, or one of the Alesis mixers can do a good job at $100- $300 in place of a decent batt powered mixer that start at around $850. And when you move up to having a production mixer with their own equipment you can take that 1202 and stick it in your edit suite for monitoring. And it's built like a tank.
 
Wow more great info and I think maybe I switched gears too fast. If I were to get a new camera it wouldn't be for the audio aspect. That would be nice to have the XLR ins just for convience sake of my low budget films. Literally there is no budget for any of my films. All my friends help out and I'm sure it shows but I have to start somewhere.
So please stop with the rentals.

I know in a perfect world if I did four shoots a year and could to shell out 2K in a year I would. But it took me 6 months to save up $400 for the audio I have now. So like someone mentioned a couple posts back I can't do it. I'm in IT not the film industry. I do this because I enjoy doing it. Maybe someday I'll be in the industry but not right now. Yes I say "I wish my audio was better" and that is what I'm trying to acheive, but at a price I can afford. Will it be perfect spending 400+, no...but it's better than my onboard mic, right? And if that get me one step closer to making a better film than my last one, well then that's where I am going to go.

So the camera is the most important part to me...that's why when my wife said I could get one I dropped everything else and though if I could get XLRs with it, AWESOME! But after thinking and wanting I know I probably shouldn't until maybe tax time so I am going to either get the converter thing for $180 or whatever this new separate recording thing is.

If I got the separate recording thing it would require dubbing in POST, right? But I would be able to use this on any shoot, technically. Also it would give him more control. Because face it if I get the converter and that goes straight to the camera then I'm gonna want the headphones to listen and then the "Sound Guy" would really just be my boom mic holder...
 
So I looked over the 1202 and I don't see 1/8" outs or ins. So wouldn't I be in the same spot from before where I would have to use a converter to get it from 1/4" to 1/8"? Or am I just missing something.
 
richke said:
If I got the separate recording thing it would require dubbing in POST, right?
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Not really.

"Dubbing" usually refers to either recording entirely new dialogue in post (usually for language regionalization), or the process of making a 1:1 copy of a tape.

When Recording double-system sound, you will have to find a way to synchronize the picture and sound during post-production. The easiest method for this is the tried-and-true clapper slate: snapping the slate on-screen will give you a nice and simple visual reference, which can easily be matched up to the loud snap on the audio track. To make things even easier you'll have a corresponding snap on the camera's mic, which you can use to double-check the synch.

In a pinch, merely clapping your hands while both camera and recorder are rolling will give you a good reference point. Just be sure that you keep track of which sound goes with which video (announcing the scene/shot/take while rolling before the slate sound should suffice).

richke said:
Because face it if I get the converter and that goes straight to the camera then I'm gonna want the headphones to listen and then the "Sound Guy" would really just be my boom mic holder...
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Any boom operator worth his or her salt will insist on their own headphone feed. Fortunately, headphone splitters only cost a couple bucks.
 
richke said:
So I looked over the 1202 and I don't see 1/8" outs or ins. So wouldn't I be in the same spot from before where I would have to use a converter to get it from 1/4" to 1/8"? Or am I just missing something.
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There are ready made cables that go from 1/4 to 1/8. Further the level that would be carried is 'line' which is much higher than the mic.
 
I found this for an external recording source and it made by Fostex like someone mentioned above.

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Fostex-MR-8mkII-8-Track-Digital-Recorder-103729851-i1125873.gc

I see it has two XRL ins so my mic could go straight in and then it has all those controls I will have to learn how to use...but what do you think. Seems better than just getting a converter for the same price.

OR like mentioned

http://www.amazon.com/Zoom-ZOO-H4-H...A2K6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1248965662&sr=8-1

I don't care about the power supply because I will be inside. But which would others suggest between these two? I know Smuir would suggest the Zoom since he suggested it earlier...but how do they compare, I guess.
 
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That Fostex is intended for music recording and is limited to a 44.1kHz sample rate.

Go with one of the Zooms, the H4n came out recently, and if your budget allows, pick that over the older H4.
 
The Fostex records in some compressed format at 44.1, you need an uncompressed 48k file.
As SMuir, said you will need to post sync, not dub.

Here's the thing, along with being a money pit, sound is also a brain pit, hey What a pit! What I mean is that you really can never spend enough that there is not something that would do X just a bit better and is SO important if you want to do Y. The camera is the same way. You can ask questions here till your brain explodes but the deeper you go the more you need to know and it goes up exponentially. I work full time in film and have for over 10 years and did 20+ years in theatre before that. Not quite so much for production sound (or I'm not deep enough to see it all) but post sound has come to require a HUGE knowledge base just to stay afloat. You used to have to know how to cut and at least the basics of time code. Now you need to know lots about video codecs and how to get stuff out of various NLE's LOTs of conversions, delivery formats. The next big change in FCP IS going to do something to your work flow, maybe good , maybe bad. And the same thing with all of them, so you need to keep up with at least basic functions of all the NLE's you come across. You NEED to know that NLE X can't do OMF, or that NLE Z doesn't include automation with it's OMF.

My point is keep it simple because it is SO easy to get way over your head. You have to be very careful about getting a little pro, because if you do it the wrong way your in for a lot of pain.

I worked with this producer director team that shot a short. The director hadn't gotten a chance in school to do a real shot and so they decided to do this horror short. They got some friends with a grip truck to come up for free and bring all the toys and they decided to shoot on super 16 because it was "real film aspect ratio" and they wanted to shoot on film. Anyway the director decides to play with all the toys and they did crane shots and long tracking shots etc. They ran out of film (S16 you had to order from Kodak direct), so they had to do a second shoot to finish. They rented a TC DAT because someone said they needed to have a TC DAT and a Smart slate. Really pointless since there was no corresponding TC on the film, but it was the "profesional" thing to do.

Long/ short is that they made a pretty mediocre horror short and it ended up costing them over $35K.

There is a video on youTube right now of these crazy guys skateboarding down a big hill, sounds boring right. Well even my wife had to watch the whole thing and it's just skateboarding, they had the camera back and forth, no tech, sound is onboard and basically one big blow out but this is a great little film. Apples and Oranges to some extent but the point is don't go crazy over the tech. because even people who do it full time can't keep up with it all.
 
Something suggested on another thread might be all you need to go from the phantom power unit to the camera, and the price is right.

Da Link
 
Noiz2 said:
Something suggested on another thread might be all you need to go from the phantom power unit to the camera, and the price is right.

Da Link
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This just makes me want to cry :)

This is what I went into GuitarCenter looking for and they said they didn't have it so they suggested the XLR - 1/4" - 1/8" cap thing....HA!!!!

Ordering and if it doesn't work I'm going with the H4 recorder. :)
 
richke said:
This just makes me want to cry :)

This is what I went into GuitarCenter looking for and they said they didn't have it so they suggested the XLR - 1/4" - 1/8" cap thing....HA!!!!

Ordering and if it doesn't work I'm going with the H4 recorder. :)
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I don't go to Guitar Center... for the few things I've wanted, they did not have anything reasonable. For the XLR to <whatever> I think I left after a series of cables, some 6 ft long, and connectors, and of course about $50... I said forget it...

In the same area was Frey's. Frey's is 'crap', but if one wanders around, one can actually find stuff... avoid the sales people like the plague... I found my solution for about $5... (and what's more they scatter their inventory all over the store... so one has to really hunt around to find things...).

About the only Guitar Center foray that was successful was when I needed a Midi to USB interface to go from my keyboard to my Mac... they had that... but it was sort of buried, as in not on the customer accessible shelves or kiosks...
 
richke said:
This just makes me want to cry :)

This is what I went into GuitarCenter looking for and they said they didn't have it so they suggested the XLR - 1/4" - 1/8" cap thing....HA!!!!

Ordering and if it doesn't work I'm going with the H4 recorder. :)
Click to expand...

If you got that cable/converter combo at Guitar Center there's a real good chance it wasn't wired correctly for video applications. Is the 1/4" end a "mono" type plug (2 conductor - tip and sleeve) or a "stereo" type plug (3 conductor - tip, ring, and sleeve)?

Most that I've seen in music stores are designed to connect a balanced XLR output to a balanced 1/4 input. That means the 1/4 would be a TRS (tip, ring, sleeve) plug. The mic puts signal hot on XLR pin 2 which connects to the tip of the 1/4" in that sort of cable, signal cold on XLR pin 3 which would connect to the TRS ring, and shield on Pin 1 which connects to TRS sleeve. A "stereo 1/4 to stereo 1/8" adapter, often sold for headphones, preserves that signal arrangement. The problem is the stereo mic jack expects to see the left channel on the tip, the right channel on the ring, and both signal grounds on the sleeve. Stacking the cable and adapter means two things will happen ... a: the left and right channels will each get only half of the mic's output, and b: the two channels will be opposite each other in phase, leading to cancellation when they are mixed.

If you're handy with a soldering iron you can make up a cable that will connect properly although the transformer suggested in another post is a better solution. To wire a mono balanced XLR mic to a 1/8 stereo mic input, you connect XLR pin 2 to BOTH the tip and ring of the 1/8", XLR pin1 to 1/8 sleeve, and solder a jumper from XLR pin 3 to XLR pin 1. (You can buy such adapters ready made and they also include a capacitor to keep the DC "mic power" (different from phantom) from getting into the mic - see for example http://www.trewaudio.com/store/product.php?productid=146&cat=31&page=1.)
 
Steve, you didn't look close enough at the link this is going through a matching transformer, it's built in to the XLR.
 
Noiz2 said:
Steve, you didn't look close enough at the link this is going through a matching transformer, it's built in to the XLR.
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The link I posted to the connector on Trew's site? I beg to differ. I've got Remote Audio's stereo version of that same exact cable sitting here on my desk as I write ... DC blocking caps but no transformer.
 
I actually bought juicelinks cheapest converter box yesterday around five. I need to be able to sample my audio while recording and my mic doesn't have an out. So I figured this would deffinately help my hum/buzz and then I could also split the headphone out to actually be able to hear what we are recording. It will be in Wednesday and I will do some testing then.

At first $180 seemed like alot to shell out but once my wife said I could get a new camera it was($2500) it was a relief to only spend $180 and didn't bother me at all anymore :)

So I think Noiz or Suim(can;t remeber) suggested this early on...so we will see how it goes. Thanks for all the advice people gave and it helped me learn alot. One thing I would suggest if anyone ever posted a "I want a mic, what should I get" I would send them to juicedlink.com and watch the tutorials on there. For a new person that info is priceless and it is in video form so it is so much easier to understand.

Thanks again!!! I will let you know how it goes Wednesday/Thursday.
 
Steve House said:
The link I posted to the connector on Trew's site? I beg to differ. I've got Remote Audio's stereo version of that same exact cable sitting here on my desk as I write ... DC blocking caps but no transformer.
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No the link in my post that preceded the one you talked about the transformer. Probably one of those weird web things where neither of us quoted what we were referring to and and managed to post in an order that confused us. The link I posted has a transformer built in.
 
Well I got a chance to test it this weekend and there is a hug difference with the Juiced link. Just need to get a headphone amp so I can hear it out of the Juicelink since I don;t have a headphone out on my cam. I emailed Noiz and Smir the demo since you guys really helped me along.

I know I need to get the sound treatment in the room...but I'm just happy to see the hiss is gone :) thanks all!
 
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