Hissing with New Mic

[richke]

Okay maybe some have you have chatted with me before, some maybe not. I took as much advice as I could before purchasing and ended up going with what I could afford. I'm buying a mic to use with my short films I make since all I had was my on board for my Panasonic GS300. I have no experience with this and basically am buying the equipment to have someone else use during shooting.

I bought...

Rode NTG1 - $170
Phantom Power - $40
20 ' Cable - $15
Boom Pole - $150
Converter cable - XLR to 1/4" with a 1/4" to 1/8" at the end of that so it would go into my camera - $14(I know not the best practice but it's what I can afford right now.)

So I got the mic in today and I did a test which I linked at the bottom. Obviously I noticed a clarity and volume change from my on board to the new mic but with the new mic came a strange HISS! I'm not worried about the clunking, I know that will go away when I mount it andput the shockmount on.

[URL]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGrnSVM8888[/URL]

You'll see in the video that I did some minor POST work and removed the hiss in the silent areas but any speaking the HISS returns! I'm getting Adobe Audtion in a couple weeks apposed to the WavePad I use now to do Audio Editing.

Any ideas?

Mic? Cable? Stupid Converter thing? Post Software? Is the hiss thing common and I just need to figure out how to edit it out in POST?

As you can tell I'm new to Audio and I really won't be handling the mic so simplicity is bliss in any of your answers

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Noiz2]

I'll look at the video but I would say off the top of my head, that the preamp on you camera sucks but there is also the issue of the 1/8" connector. It's like putting gas in a diesel car. Just because it's fuel and you can pour it doesn't mean it will work. In your case your going from a mono XLR and feeding it in some fasion into a 1/8" connector. Just because you can get something to fit doesn't mean it will work. The NTG-1 is balanced low impedance source, you need an impedance matching transformer to get that to a high impedance unbalanced source. The mic jack on the camera, is it stereo or mono? Is it putting out power to power a mini mic? Is it on some auto gain setting?

From the video you seem to switch back and forth from stereo (two channel anyway) to mono. Were you back and forthing with the built in mics? When you mono the right channel is hissing away so that is part of the problem. Second some of what I think your calling hiss is room tone. The built in mic has no low end so your not going to hear anything. It sounded like you had a refrigerator going somewhere.

So first get the thing connected properly, that should help. Since you were only getting sound on one channel at times I'm going to guess that the 1/8" is a stereo jack. So you will always have one hissy garbage track that you need to toss or mute. Get a matching transformer to get down to an unbalanced signal. Those should help a lot.

And DONT gate the audio to "eliminate hiss", the gating sounds far worse than the hiss. But if you get it hooked up right it probably won't be so much of a problem. Assuming you can set a manual gain.

 

[unclebob6958]

#1 - Noiz is right, you are hearing the hiss from the crappy, substandard preamps in the camera. No surprise there.

#2 - Again agreeing with Noiz; there may be a problem with your XLR - 1/4" - minipin converter system. You are only getting the left channel when using the NTG-1. You have a connection problem that needs to be resolved.

#3 - Since the left channel is the only one receiving audio you are "doubling" the hiss factor. Split the stereo track into two mono tracks and eliminate the right channel which gives you only hiss.

#4 - Use a low pass filter to reduce the hiss. Start at about 10kHz and slowly edge down until it starts to adversely affect the dialog. You can do the same with a notch filter or parametric EQ. Find the offending frequency and experiment with the gain and the Q until you reduce the hiss without affecting the dialog. If you do decide to gate you should have some "clean" room tone on another track to bring the audio back to life.

#5 - Right away you can here the "roomy" tone of using a shotgun mic indoors. The sound bounces off of the wall in front of you, then bounces off of the wall in behind you and into the mic. You need to work on getting the mic aimed directly at your mouth.

Some food for thought:

The Inverse Square Law

In simple terms, this means that a sound twice as far away is only one-fourth as loud. A sound four times as far away is only one-sixteenth as loud. So a human voice that records with adequate volume three feet away is just one-sixteenth as effective at twelve feet.

 

[richke]

Thanks for the responses guys! I am at work this morning and put on my headphones and noticed right away the left channel was the only audio given. When I put the video into Premiere it comes in as one audio channel. I'll see if I can break it up into two sections though.

My camera only has the one in...I will double check the connection. I do plan on buying an actual converter box($130 or so) in a month or so but do you think that will help if the camera is causing the issue? I only ask because I doubt my camera has any audio settings...but I will check.

 

[richke]

I was going through the manual I found online and it says it is a "Mini stereo" In and I see something about setting it to 12 bits for 4 channels and 16 bits for two channels.

But I don't see where I set that. Hope to do some testing when I get home.

 

[Noiz2]

You want 16 bit not 12. A mixer/ preamp like the MixPre would let you go line in to the camera and bypass the on camera mic preamp and probably any automatic gain that is going on. The mix pre is probably a little rich for your blood but probably almost anything would be better than the onboard mic preamps.

 

[unclebob6958]

I do plan on buying an actual converter box ($130 or so) in a month or so but do you think that will help if the camera is causing the issue?

If you want to do yourself a favor look at the juicedLink CX231 or the Beachtek DXA-6A. They both supply 48V phantom power, have manual volume controls, will correct your adapter & mono/stereo problems, reduces the number of items in your signal chain (hopefully less noise), and can mount under the camera.

The cheaper juicedLink and Beachtek boxes do not supply phantom power.

I was going through the manual I found online and it says it is a "Mini stereo" In

That is the mini-pin (also known as 1/8" or 3.5mm) audio input.

...and I see something about setting it to 12 bits for 4 channels and 16 bits for two channels.

Stick with two channel, 16bit. 12 bit is a lower recording resolution; you have enough quality issues already and you don't have a need for 4 tracks of audio as of yet.

 

[richke]

If you want to do yourself a favor look at the juicedLink CX231 or the Beachtek DXA-6A. They both supply 48V phantom power, have manual volume controls, will correct your adapter & mono/stereo problems, reduces the number of items in your signal chain (hopefully less noise), and can mount under the camera.

The cheaper juicedLink and Beachtek boxes do not supply phantom power.
.

Looks like I need to go that route and I was hoping I wouldn't to start but that hiss is annoying as all get out. I will do some more testing to see if I can eliminate the hiss without the box...but I don't think it will help much.

Well I can return the cable/converter and get $15 back then the phantom for another $40. So $55 toward the damn $299...Blah! Sweet god I can;t believe these damn things cost more than my mic. Maybe I should just return everything...


I did find this that says it needs no power to operate.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/335809-REG/Beachtek_DXA_2S_DXA_2S_Dual_XLR.html#features

It's by Beachtek or whatever. Would this be good or no?

It ays this as well...

Input Connections 2 x XLR Female, Balanced
1 x 1/8" Mini Jack(Left), Unbalanced - Does this mean it will only record the left channel?

 

[Noiz2]

Your mic needs phantom power to operate.
Just think of the good old days, a decent shotgun & recorder would set you back $20K+

 

[richke]

Your mic needs phantom power to operate.
Just think of the good old days, a decent shotgun & recorder would set you back $20K+

- Thanks - You really know how to make me feel better.

Ok so I was talking with my wife about how I am pretty sure I need the converter box to fix the hissing. She says fine. I tell her it is $180+ she doesn't sound fine.

I tell her I would hate to spend the money on something I wouldn;t use if I got a new camera. She tells me to buy a new camera!

So before I decide to do this I have one more question.

1. I was looking at cameras in the $1500 - $2300 range and all of them seem to have the same input as what my camera has. Is this normal or are these just crappy cameras or is just worth getting XLR inputs for $2500 plus?

2. Or say screw Audio...return everything I bought and put that toward the new camera($2500) and get someone to work for me on my shoots?

 

[Huy Vu]

1. I was looking at cameras in the $1500 - $2300 range and all of them seem to have the same input as what my camera has. Is this normal or are these just crappy cameras or is just worth getting XLR inputs for $2500 plus?

Which one? There are many cameras in that price range brand new with XLR inputs: Sony A1U, Panasonic DVC30, HMC40, DVC80 etc. And if you're buying used the list grows even larger.

 

[j1clark@ucsd.edu]

- Thanks - You really know how to make me feel better.

Ok so I was talking with my wife about how I am pretty sure I need the converter box to fix the hissing. She says fine. I tell her it is $180+ she doesn't sound fine.

I tell her I would hate to spend the money on something I wouldn;t use if I got a new camera. She tells me to buy a new camera!

Are you adverse to buy used camera equipment. Also, what format are you thinking of, as in Standard Definition, or High Def...

What type of 'short' films are you antecipating making. Short dramas, 'raality' or 'documentary/interview'?

I have the DVX100A which I bought new several years ago. It uses mini-DV tape (I hate tape... but what are you going to do...), and is Standard Definition.

If you are just getting into film making, then I'd say, find a reputable source for a DVX100, probably fit in the 1000-2000 budget, and buy some cheap... uh, inexpensive audio devices and get shooting.

You should not be embarrased about using the DVX100, it is a 'industry standard'... and there have been some winning short films, as well as a few features made with it.

Otherwise for anything HD that is worth buying, will be in the 3500+ at this point. The 'other' alternative there would be to buy the Panasonic GH-1 or similar 'still camera' with 'HD capture' capability. You'd definitely need to learn how to capture audio 'old school', that is with a separate audio recorder, and then sync with video. But I think the GH-1 is about 1500.


There are similar types of cameras from Canon and Nikon, and these probably have more lens options than the GH-1, given the prevelant use of those cameras in the still photo world.

 

[SMuir]

You have a third option, Richke.

Keep your camera (if you're happy with the picture), pick up a small digital recorder (like the Zoom H4 or Fostex FR2-LE) and shoot double-system.

The preamps and A-D converter quality on even the humble little H4 puts to shame the audio circuitry on many mid- to high-end prosumer camcorders. Synching your footage in post-production can be tedious, but its far from difficult (provided you're organized during production).

 

[richke]

Whoa I need to take this all in... I have shot 2 shorts and film a goofy comedy on Youtube right now. Most of my films are dialog driven and I am happy for the most part with my picture. The lighting needs work but my Panasonic GS300 has been good to me for 2 years. But there are no features, bells or whistles. And directing is what I like doing so a better camera makes me smile at the opportunity.

I looked on http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/shop/1881/Pro_Camcorders_ENG_.html/mnp/0.0/mxp/0.0/sortDrop/Price%3A+Low+to+High/ac/

to start and just saw the trend with the "Mini Sereo Mic" INS. I have always liked the Canon GL2 for some reason and I see somewhere I can get it used for $2200 OBO. Seems like a good deal but leary, warranty? Problems? and so on. If I get something that isn't that brand new but in my range I FEEL SAFER...

Do I need High Def? I dunno...do I? Is it easier to shoot or is the lighting just as important, or more important. I'm happy with what I shoot now but yeah 1080i would be sweet.

I saw some older DVX100As out there. But I don't know if I want one that has 1000 hours on it.

 

[j1clark@ucsd.edu]

Do I need High Def? I dunno...do I? Is it easier to shoot or is the lighting just as important, or more important. I'm happy with what I shoot now but yeah 1080i would be sweet.

HD has a certain sex appeal at the moment, and SD will fade... but if it's a choice of getting a set of equipment that cover all your 'learning' needs, it sounds like all you need do is get an external recorder, Zoom H4 used, or Zoom H4n new... and sync in the editor...

 

[unclebob6958]

Here's the problem, which applies to most low/no/micro budget filmmakers - they try to get away cheaply, then complain when it looks or sounds cheap or they run into technical issues.

In many ways - in my humble, personal opinion - it seems like young filmmakers have an obsession with owning all of their own gear. Why? Be honest with yourself, how often are you going to use it? A couple of weekends each year? So instead of spending two or three grand on a camera (which will be next to valueless in three or four years) and the accessories plus another $500 to $1k on audio gear why not rent?

So, instead of owning $4k of low budget gear you can rent $20k or more worth of quality gear for four weekends for $2k - and then you can actually afford to pay your key personnel a token day rate (many of who probably own their own gear and would be willing to rent it out at a reduced rate) and cover the OOP expenses for your cast! And you still have a few bucks left over for post production. With better personnel and better gear you will put out a better looking and sounding project. And since the original footage looks and sounds better you'll save money on post!

 

[j1clark@ucsd.edu]

So, instead of owning $4k of low budget gear you can rent $20k or more worth of quality gear for four weekends for $2k

Attempting to avoid the acrimony that this sort of sentiment has produced...

A certain amount of this sort of thing requires 'living/sleeping/fighting/eating/shi*ting' with the equipment. This is not something that occurs in 4 rental sessions.

The second element, is that most people, who are asking these questions, do not make any money via The Industry. My guess is that most people asking these questions make money in completely different areas, or are going to school, and so while they may have time... have no money anyway... those that are making money, have no time.

Hence, the only way they may 'learn' is on off hours, and perhaps not too schedulable.

Some types of schools tend to the 'theoretical'... The Wife attended this sort of school years ago, and the typical 'offering' from most of the students, who used 'school equipment' (or rented), was pretty much crap... because the Wife and I had been doing still photography for years, there was a quantum jump in her 'visuals' relative to the rest of her classmates. We also have the philosophy of 'buy' vs. 'rent', so I sold my 4x5 to get a 'reasonable' video camera for the era for her to do her projects with. We... that is I could not afford more than U-matic type editing setup... but because at the time I was working in image processing 'we' did a lot more digital processing (this is mid 80's...) than most of her other classmates... had I 'bought' that equipment... well, millions of dollars comes to mind... but the point is I was working with it every day, programing it manually to get various effects etc... (which is a reason why when photoshop came out, we shelled out...)

Move forward 25 years... I think today people for a very 'modest' amount can come up with sufficient equipment to make watchable, and in this forum, listenable, films.

Once 'how to handle the equipment is learned', once 'how to compose a shot is learned', once 'how to put it all together and produce a final film is learned'... Then sure, rent for bigger projects, or rent with the knowledge about what it takes...

Since some people like car analogies...

Which will more likely produce a more knowledgeable driver... one who rents a 250K Porsche 4 days a year... or someone who buys a 4K beater (or even a 2K beater..), and drives it daily for 365 days a year.

 

[Noiz2]

Don't know that a new camera under $4k or so is going to be light-years ahead of the one you have and I think buying a camera for sound is a little like buying a car because you like the pain job. You need a camera to give you the visuals you need, get one that will do that. Pretty much all cameras record sound, very few record sound well. And in the big picture the camera is the last place you really want to be recording your sound since it's one of the places your sound person will have almost no access. My advice is usually to hire a pro or pro in training. Not because there is some magic secret handshake with sound but because it is a money pit and if your using your own camera you already have one money pit. Now "hire" doesn't nec mean pay the big bucks. It might be credit if they are desperate for credits, or a favor, or you buy a mic and they get to keep it. It's amazing how well the last kind of barter works. I've known people who did weeks on a show for a mic that the producer had scored very cheap when they would have turned down an offer if it had been for the retail price of the same mic.

If your doing narrative films you NEED a sound person anyway. If you get one who wants to do a good job then you two can learn together and it's a good deal all around. And they will know their equipment.

Personally if I were going to start making shorts and such I would put together a crew that I intended to work with for years, if poss. Even if nobody has much experience your better off with a small group than you are trying to do it all your self.

So you kind of need to know what you wat to do before you start to go there. For instance say you want to make these shorts and you don't want to spend more than say $150 over the mic you already have AND you need to get a decent signal into the camera. Well I would say limit your self to sync sound only in locations where you can get AC power. Go get a used Mackie 1202. You get 4 channels of good mic preamp with phantom power and can feed line in to your camera which should eliminate most of your issues. You have to plug it in but with a long extension cord that shouldn't put too many limitations on you and you can probably sell it for what you payed it for.
Cheers
SK

 

[j1clark@ucsd.edu]

Go get a used Mackie 1202. You get 4 channels of good mic preamp with phantom power and can feed line in to your camera which should eliminate most of your issues.

I've tracked about 4 Mackie 1202s in the last month on E-bay, and most have gone for under $100-150. Of course I have no idea about the 'quality'or brokenness... but they definitely have not been all that expensive relatively speaking.

 

[unclebob6958]

Attempting to avoid the acrimony that this sort of sentiment has produced...
A certain amount of this sort of thing requires 'living/sleeping/fighting/eating/shi*ting' with the equipment. This is not something that occurs in 4 rental sessions.

Well, I guess that it's a difference of viewpoints. If he wants to be a DP then, yes, I could see spending lots of time and money on a camera, or if he wanted to be PSM, buying a lot of sound gear. Most of these folks - at least the way I read it - want to direct. That doesn't require in depth technical knowledge. It requires a great deal of discipline and the ability to communicate their vision/interpretation of the script clearly and concisely, and leadership/management skills that will move the team of crew and cast forward with enthusiasm.

Go get a used Mackie 1202. You get 4 channels of good mic preamp with phantom power and can feed line in to your camera which should eliminate most of your issues. You have to plug it in but with a long extension cord that shouldn't put too many limitations on you and you can probably sell it for what you payed it for.

The Mackie 1202 is a decent mixer, but, once again, it's aimed at the music community, lots of sub-mix routing, 3-band EQ, etc. (and newbs will be tempted to "play" with it, usually to the detriment of their sound). It also requires AC power, so will be completely useless in a run&gun situation. Also, to my ears, it is a bit screechy, and the preamps are a bit noisy for production sound applications. But, for $100 to $200 (used) it could be a viable option

What I want out of a production sound audio mixing unit is:

Quiet mic pres
Phantom power
Little or no tonal coloration
Simplicity of use
Long, accurate audio level meters
Flexible audio routing/monitoring
Reliability
Durability