Hiring professionals

dstevens said:
I was wondering about some young person just out of college.... They don't come with years of experience, but they would have some formal training, and could do a reasonable job, and find fifty a meaningful amount?
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Honestly, i really hate when people thnk they can really low ball students or recent grads. I see it all the time on craigs list. I saw someone looking too hire an Assistant Editor editor for $5 to 7 an hour. Or i saw someone looking for a cameraman with their own package for $100 for a day. You cant even rent a DVX around here for under $175. Then i love it when they say, "Great for your Reel", or "Could led to more work," or "make great connections." Well first, if its that low budget, its probably not great for your reel. Second, who wants more work at crap wages. Third, if there isn't money involved, then they probably are not great connections.

I'll shoot friends projects for them if the scripts good or if we are shooting on film. $25/day sounds like it would barely cover food and gas. Honestly, you are not going to get any professionals for that. You may be able to get someone who is a slightly advanced amateur but no professionals. Any student or recent grad who is willing to take that, probably wont be any better then you or your friends.

If this isn't making sense, bottom line.
1) Dont low ball students. There are a number of students out there that do freelance work and know what good rates are. Many of them are just as talented as professional, hence the fact they are already working in the field.
2) Be honest and offer food/gas/drinks and see what the best reel you get is.
3) dont low ball students.
 
watson said:
Then i love it when they say, "Great for your Reel", or "Could led to more work," or "make great connections." Well first, if its that low budget, its probably not great for your reel. Second, who wants more work at crap wages. Third, if there isn't money involved, then they probably are not great connections.
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Brilliantly put. Those are excellent answers.

For the right project, almost anyone will work for free. If it's interesting enough, you can get good people. But as an audio guy told me once, and it's stuck with me since: "If I'm doing it for the project, then the project had better be good. If I'm doing it for the money, then the money had better be good."
 
I put an ad on Craig's List for waltind's and my project. Got everyone to work for free, one actress (SAG) even drove down for Seattle (3 hour one way drive) because she liked the script & the role offered. Also scored a professional stunt coordinator with all his rigging, pads, guns, etc. ... even brought some spark-explosion FX he had.

It DOES come down to them liking the project, period. In our case, I was absolutely up front & stated this was a for FREE project. However, we brought out contracts to everyone on set & had them sign for a deferred pay, which not only protected us in the long run, but also promised to give them sOMETHING for every day they worked with us ... if we ever made anything.

Bottom line, to me, is it's all about dealing in good faith with people you can respect & trust. If they like the experience, they'll likely do it again with you, allowing you to build a network of pros to work with. If you drop the ball on this first time out with them, you'll never see them again.

Sorry, I couldn't take the time to read the middle page, so if I just repated something ..
 
its better to say as a favor then $50 buck in my opinion. 50 sounds like your making fun of them
 
what do you mean by Professional ??

to me no professional is going to work for 50.. they may work for free but not for 50 ... spend the $ on good lunch for crew .
i shot commercials .. over the years i have worked on many projects for FREE .. i' d tried to keep it down to 3-4 days a month .. still today i will DP or consult for free on projects a few days a month ... i'm listed in one of the professional crew books ... persons sometimes just pick names out of it and call or they get name from others ... it takes nerve to make a cold call and offer no pay .. for me if the persons makes a cold call that tells me something about the person right there ! it comes down to the persons love/enthusiasm for their project - if they aren't thrilled by their project the call is over .. if they are thrilled then we talk etc ... just tell us about your project PLEASE do not tell us that you can't talk about project until we sign a non disclosure agreement ( phone call is over) ... just remember professionals get calls/offers all the time .. my 3-4 "free" days per month are booked up till sept 06..
if you want a professional CALL one up .. they may work on it or they may know somebody that is up and coming that may work on it or they may end the call or they may give advice = you have nothing to loose ....
 
I agree. It's simple SALES 101: If you don't ask, the answer is already "No" ... so, you have nothing to lose in asking & may learn a thing or two in the process.
 
I think the general consensus here is:

Take that fifity and double it a couple of times, and you should be alright. Otherwise, don't mention it, buy beer and big macs with it. :)
 
DIATRIBE:
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First of all, the most insulting posts are those asking you to work for a deferred rate. Everyone knows that means "work for free". Likewise, selling your no-budget dream as a dynamite piece for your reel. As one poster said, if you got no budget, it probably won't be something that one would want to put on their reel.

Asking strangers to work for free tells me that you are _not_ a professional. Or at least clearly says that you are too f*ing slack to raise or save a little cash to pay people at least a half rate.

Everyone is in such a hurry to make their little films. Looking for the next best shortcut. Trying to do the least amount of work. (Budgeting is part of development!)

I would never ask someone to pay out of their pocket to work on my project -- even close friends. If you give no money, that is exactly what they will have to do: gas, meals, child care, whatever.

PRACTICAL ADVICE:
------------------------
By all means, give them something. In addition, offer 'trade out'. Why not make little 'coupons', if you will, offering your services, whether for film project, home improvement project, babysitting or whatever you can give them of value. And, I agree, do not call it pay. "Stipend" or "expense money" or even "beer money" would be better. Furthermore, when you are working with a barely existent budget, give everyone exactly the same amount-- since you are calling it a stipend for expenses.

1. Figure out the budget for your project.
2. If you are really impatient, raise 1/2 before trying to cast and crew it with only that amount. (Then, you offer people a half-rate.)
3. Deduct for equipment rental and hard expenses.
4. Take the remaining amount and divide it equally among all participants. (Definitely do not "pay" yourself more.)
5. Be upfront and honest with all participants.
6A. If the project returns a big profit, go back and pay everyone their rate (the difference remaining, at least)...before 'paying' yourself, even.
6B. If the project returns only a small profit, divy the money up equally among all participants.

Follow these steps, and chances are that these people will be happy to work with you again.


[My personal anecdote, about how I handled a project, under separate post.]
 
The Anecdote

The Anecdote

I created a scripted/unscripted tv show, and wanted to shoot a presentation pilot. There was a 'contest' element to it, so I needed 'prizes', so to speak. Pitched the show idea to several 'vendors', always being honest that this was a pilot so that there was no guarantee that the show would air, and typically these kind of pilots did not.

On the strength of the show idea, and probably more on my enthusiasm, several 'vendors' offered their goods/services for free.

1. Presidential Suite in largest hotel (per rooms) in the world. (Value: $1,000 per night)
2. Crew room in same hotel. (Value: ~$150+ per night)
3. Gourmet dinner for 2 'winners' in hotel restaurant. (Value: ~$150)
4. Spa services in hotel spa for 2. (Value: ~$250+)
5. Limousine service by local provider. (Value: ~$300+)
6A. Dinner for 2 winners, plus 5 crew, in a different local fine dining restaurant. ($400+) [I planned to pay for the crew to eat at the location, but restaurant insisted that they would comp.]
6B. Dinner for 2 winners for a reshoot. [I planned to pay; restaurant insisted I not.]
7. Outdoors adventure activity, by nationwide vendor ($180).
8. Other outdoor activity by another local entertainment complex ($40).

In addition, I had:
1. Two "actors" ('winners') for several days (although only 2 of those days were full days).
2. Two (2) cameramen and one (1) audio mixer for 1 day. [One of the cameramen was a close friend with 20+ years of experience as a Writer/Producer/Director/DP/Etc., himself. Also, brought his camera and audio gear, as 2nd ENG package.]
3. A live band for 1-2 hour(s).
4. A veteran Editor for 6 full days.


Here is what I offered (cash provided on the day):
1. Vendors: Paid all gratuities ($300, at least) at vendor locations.
2. Vendors: offered to shoot B-Roll for them anytime they wished to schedule.
3. "Actors": $100 stipend each for project (total of about 2 days), lots of dog walking, plus offer to pay rate out of first real budget. In addition, they got lots of free food and entertainment. ($200)
4A. Crew: $100 each (x2) for the day, plus lunch and gourmet dinner. ($200+)
4B. Crew (veteran with gear): Offer to design/build website ($1,000+ value)
5. Cast/Crew: Lunch at Cheesecake Factory. [We got rained out after only a couple hours on our shoot date. Everyone was generous enough to come back the next day, so I took all to a nice lunch. (~$250 dollars)
6. Band: $20 "gas money" to each member (plus 1 PA) for the 1-hour shoot, plus offer to shoot/edit them a music video. ($100+ my time)
7. Editor: $600 (20-year veteran Editor _offered_ to work a 5-day flat rate of $500, his normal day rate. We needed 1 extra day, which he offered for free. I paid him $100 cash for the extra day.)


All money came out of my own pocket. I'm flat broke now, but I feel honorable.

Anyone want to work on my next project?

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P.S. -- Recently shot a 50th high school reunion, pretty much as a favor. Posted ad at ProductionHub.com for an Intern/PA. Said: "The job will be incredibly boring, will not do a thing for your resume or reel, but there is $50 in it for 4 hours of work." Got about 6 or 7 interested parties. The recent grad that I 'hired' expressed her gratitude for giving her a chance, saying that no one else had. Turns out the PA got lost, so was quite late. By that time, I had done all the setup myself. There was little for her to do and the gig was only about 3 hours for her. Still gave her $50 cash that night, of course.
 
NoPun said:
Asking strangers to work for free tells me that you are _not_ a professional. Or at least clearly says that you are too f*ing slack to raise or save a little cash to pay people at least a half rate.
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Wow, there are some things that you had to say that are common sense and that I'd agree with, but I couldn't disagree with the above statement more if I tried.

No one can slam all markets into a one-size-fits-all. To do so is simply ridiculous. Take the Portland film market, where I live, for example. Portland is well known for its independant film community. I'd say 60% or more of the local gigs are low to no budget, but they get done. Could you have higher production value with an actual budget, most likely. But having zero to no budget also forces a lot of creativity that wouldn't ordinarily be there.

I've seen plenty of people that had money behind them for a project & absolutely weren't professionals. In fact, there end project was crap, they made ZERO money back for their investors, and didn't have the respect of their peers afterwards.

However, I've also seen projects that were made for practically nothing, save food expenses, turned out with impressive production value considering, AND had the people that did it for free willing and WANTING to work with that person again.

I had someone just like you, NoPun, who took the time to send me a personalized e-mail telling me how unprofessional I appeared & what a crack-wanna-be-film maker I must have been for even daring to place an ad in Craig's List seeking a Professional Stunt Coordinator to work for free AND provide all their own gear.

Yeah I can see where most people would be ashamed of me for even considering such a thing, but if you don't ask you'll never know what can happen. As it turned out, Jerry Buxbaum, a seasoned veteran, saw the ad & took interest. He contacted me, read the script, liked it, and decided to play with us for FREE that weekend, providing all his own gear at the same time. As a courtesy, I did provide him with a deferred contract, but it's otherwise a free gig.

For me, at least, I'll never ask investors to put up money for a budget, unless I'm VERY confident that I can probably get a return for them. When it comes to short films, like the DVXfest, it's likely not going to happen.
 
Envision - Portland is hot at the moment and will get hotter .. they are hiring persons out of state to come up there to work ... the old vinton studio's is planning 3 animated features and is hiring ..YES they are paying very well ... so depending on your experinece you might fit in ?? plus there are other Portland animation companies that need crew..
 
Thanks, Donatello, unfortunately I don't have animation experience, but I'll check out Vinton (changed their name to something starting with an L) as my forte's been more on the sales/wheelin' & dealin' side ...
 
Envision
there are more then just animation type jobs .. many other jobs that go with any type of production are needed ... IE: for stop motion you still need art dept , light/grip crew , accountants , PA's , production coordinators, producers , stage personal, editors ( i know they just hired a full time editor) etc .. also they do commercials ...

yes Vintons name has changed and looks like you have it ...
 
Envision said:
No one can slam all markets into a one-size-fits-all.
I've seen plenty of people that had money behind them for a project & absolutely weren't professionals. In fact, there end project was crap, they made ZERO money back for their investors, and didn't have the respect of their peers afterwards.

However, I've also seen projects that were made for practically nothing, save food expenses, turned out with impressive production value considering, AND had the people that did it for free willing and WANTING to work with that person again.
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and I agree with you. People have gotten a little fixated on the number fifty. The idea is maybe there's a middle ground between paying the rate of someone with with years, or even decades of experience and just paying nothing.

A benefit of the whole 'digital revolution' is local film/video creative scenes can grow and flourish. That requires bringing up the quality level of the projects, everyone's big issue on this board.

Like Envision says, there are different markets, and there are different levels of experience. That's every profession, I don't see how videography so different.

I'm just saying if the local director in Boston, Spokane, whatever, could pay... I don't know... $100 a day for a few days instead of $50. The quality goes up... films get into fests, distributed on the web, cell phone, whatever... People begin to notice really popular stuff is coming out of Dallas, Boston, Detroit... Investors think 'these guys seem to know how to make good stuff on very limited budget... let's invest in them....' A local filmmaking scene really takes off seriously, and now you don't move to LA, you stay close to your family, and you do really interesting work, not the corporate videos you find so boring.....

I'm obviously thinking of narrative fiction filmmaking, not event/wedding videography....
 
I think Barry G and NoPun covered this topic well.

NoPun's story of getting hotel/restaurant sponsors and trading services for professional crew production was creative. I might work for a project that had those type trade outs. I have worked for low budget productions before, but now avoid them as much as possible, unless the story has exceptional merit. Working no pay productions is too much like when I was shooting TV news 18 yrs ago (long hours and low pay).

Promises like "reel material" or "deferred pay" feel like you're being hustled. If I can get $ 400 to $ 1200 / day for writing, lighting, shooting and editing commercials, music videos or corporate I'd rather do that. (Atlanta market)

Craigslist in Atlanta is full of ads asking you to bring your 3 chip camera and lighting gear for food or deferred pay. The projects described do not inspire much entusiasm.

There are lots of average stories being shot at 24 frames that the producers plan to blow up to 35mm, without realising that film-out costs $ 20K, 30K or more. Plus these hopeful folks don't realize that you need to have distribution and advertising lined up ahead of time. I have worked on well shot projects that went nowhere without distribution or marketing.

But to answer your original question, you might get better response offering $ 100 / day plus food, or some kind of trade out. A detailed description of your cool original project might inspire some one to offer their pro lighting or shooting skills for just food, if the project is worthy.

Not trying to be negative, just honest. Hope these suggestions help you to find some technically skilled crew to help your project look better than some of those other projects out there.

Ed Hill
 
I think the issue here is the $50 as pay. If it is offered as a per diem on a no pay job, it would probably not evoke the same negative response. Offering it as pay equates that amount to the person's worth. I believe you make more working at McDonald's nowadays.

I think actually offering no/deferred pay would get just as many "No's" but you will find most people less offended then offering $50 pay.

I actually had never thought of asking the producer to "mow my lawn," "paint my house," etc. for a days work but I might keep that in mind for next time. If some kid at least offered me that sort of return-of-service, I would repect him and give it serious consideration. It shows a real sincerity of passion and repect of my time.

Good luck
 
Use the fifty bucks as a stipend, not pay for a days work.

There are times it's worth it to work for someone for free once. Maybe even twice. Never more.

I've found if you get a reputation for willingness to work for free, those are the clients who always come a calling.

I can't pay bills and stay in business with "free" or even fifty bucks for a days work.

There comes a time when you have to either pony up the cash to produce a product or admit you have no business trying to make your film and it's time for a different hobby. It certainly isn't a career that you're abandoning if you have to constantly get people to work for free or very little pay.

Don't waste those limited "free employee" opportunities. Make that project count and then do the next job right with money to pay people for their time and talents.
 
I would suguest putting up flyers around local college campuses, offering expierence for camera operators, interview them and look at their work. Since you dont have a bunch of money, you better have alot of time to looking at individuals. Once you find a cameraman that suits your needs, use the $50 to feed them, get them gas, buy them things that will just make them feel better about being on set with you.

And don't feel overwhelmed by all of the naysayers who say that your film doesn't sound good. If you dont produce it, nobody will know how good it is.

Good Luck.
 
Heres what I think. Beg, borrow or steal a cheap video camera and shoot your short the best you can with what you have. This will be like a proof of concept piece and you use this to show your directing abilities and story. Basically what the people who shot "Broken" did. They took a short and worked the crap out of it to show what they can do for little money and from what I have heard they are on their way to living thier dream. You can even just shoot a trailer or teaser. If it looks(technically because of cheap cam) and sounds terrible but people still want to see the rest then you have a good story and you are telling it the right way.This should get pros to want to sign up. Dont get some "cronies" to act, take that $ and get some good actors but tell them the deal with why you are using cheap stuff.
You could also take that cheap camera and just make a few short films with it to get the feel on how long shooting really takes especially if you have not planned the day to the minute. This way, if you do manage to get a good crew for the "real" short you dont blow it by being disorganized. Make sure you have a clear vision on what you are working on. Making a million changes on set just sucks for everyone.
Also make sure you dont give anyone attitude if something goes wrong and make tension between people. Once that happens your done and you will lose your crew.
 
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