Hiring professionals

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dstevens

Well-known member
I'm in the usual no budget bind. I have very little money and I'm desperate to increase the quality of my films. Most of my cronies in this aren't shall we say 'formally trained'.

I'm looking at doing a short film (5 minute). I'm planning to recruit a cinematographer and a sound person (as in 2 separate people). I'd pay them a flat fee of, say $50. They come to where I'm shooting, after the actors have rehearsed a few times. I show them how I've blocked the action, what I'm trying to achieve in the film, the story I'm telling, etc, etc. We brainstorm on how to get best audio and best camera work, and practice it a few times with the actors.

Then they come back the day of the shooting, and hopefully we get a very good short film.

My hope is that $50 is fair enough for roughly 2 days on a little film, particularly enough to make them take the gig seriously.

I'm not using this post as a job posting, but what do all you professionals think of such a proposal? Basically I'm offering a little bit of $ to come to my film, spend about 2 days trying to make it as professional looking as possible.

What would be your questions to me? Anything else to make it more enticing? (More money of course - but is $50 just ludicrous? A good amount?)
 
I think it all depends on just how 'professional' these professionals that you're talking about are. If your short film is good enough, you'll probably be able to find people willing to work for free (or $50). If you find people haggling with you over the $50 then I wouldn't hire them. Anyone who is taking on that job for the money probably isn't that good, or isn't that interested in your film.

$50 is a bit ridiculous in my neck of the woods. But, I suppose if that is all you have to offer it is better than nothing. I would simply be 100% upfront with whoever you talk to, and tell them about the money situation right off the bat.

But, just to put it in perspective, most Cinematographers would get paid at least 6 times that amount per day on the low end of things (at least from my experience).
Essentially what you're offering is $25 a day.
 
Luis Caffesse said:
$50 is a bit ridiculous in my neck of the woods. But, I suppose if that is all you have to offer it is better than nothing. I would simply be 100% upfront with whoever you talk to, and tell them about the money situation right off the bat.

But, just to put it in perspective, most Cinematographers would get paid at least 6 times that amount per day on the low end of things (at least from my experience).
Essentially what you're offering is $25 a day.
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Absolutely I'd be up front. The $50 is a sign that I'm serious about trying to make the film look good, not a bunch of pals screwing around. Of course, I'd talk to that person about their experience to try and gauge if they are really worth even fifty.

So, yes I'm still asking for charity, but a token amount to show I appreciate their time and effort. I know it's not close to what 'professional' gigs pay, but actual greenbacks might attract more serious people, and money has a way of focusing and sharpening one's attention.
 
I agree, and I wasn't trying insinuate that you weren't being upfront...just reiterating that it's nice when people tell you right off the bat "this is how much I have."

I can't tell you how many times I've sat through a meeting with someone, heard their whole pitch, etc, only to find out they don't have a budget to pay for anything. Don't get me wrong, I'll donate my time to many projects (in fact I just worked on a music video for free this past weekend), I just like to know that upfront.

The long and short of it is - Is $50 ridiculous? Yes. But is it better than nothing - yes. If someone were to offer me $50 for the day would I take it? Not if the short didn't seem good. If I liked a short script and the director would I work on it for free? Absolutely.

My advice to you is to have your sh%t together. Nothing agrevates people more than donating their time and then having it wasted by someone who didn't prepare. Do your legwork on preproduction, make decisions, and know what you want.

Oh yeah, and feed people. Feed them well.
With good craft services people will follow you to the ends of the earth.
:)
 
Personally, I think $50 is a weird amount. Here in LA I've surfed my share of Craigslist ads, and $50 just rubs me the wrong way somehow. If your first mention of this will be through email or a forum or anything electronic, I'd almost rather see NO pay than $50. The $50 somehow makes it seem like you think you're paying some sort of wage, when actually you're not even close. I understand the gesture you're trying to make, but it seems to me that if you're under $100, you might be better off just saying up front, "Hey, no money."

If you're looking for quality people anyway, the ones you want to find aren't the ones who need $50. Put that money into food, like Luis said, or put it into the expendables budget. That's my two cents.
 
Well, it sounds like a consensus from the audience. If you're going to hire professionals, a la the title of this thread, then hire them, don't make a token gesture?

I was wondering about some young person just out of college.... They don't come with years of experience, but they would have some formal training, and could do a reasonable job, and find fifty a meaningful amount?

Yeah, fifty is an arbitrary amount. Seemed less insulting then forty, yet still definitely within my means.
 
Yup. Get them for free, and make them come to the rehearsals . . . they will probably need it too.

You can always give them a bonus at the end if it works out.
 
You may be able to get professionals for free (if they like you and the project)
At the end of the shoot give them each the $50 bonus, they'll appreciate the gesture.

But it is true, offering $50 form the onset is almost insulting.
 
$50 isn't payment for a 2 day shoot. To consider it pay is insulting. But... to consider it a $25 a day stipend, it is acceptable and it will give that seriousness that you want your project to have. Here is what you do- let any ad you post reflect the quality of your project and the unfortunate fact that it is NO-budget. In the compensation part, say: Credit, Copy of Finished Piece and a small daily stipend. It shows that you are honest about the situation up front but also recognize that gas money is the very least you can do. Also have good food. Ask ahead of time about dietary restrictions.

If you do the above and convince them that the project will be quality, most will say yes. Well maybe not most, but at least some.
 
I have very little money and I'm desperate to increase the quality of my films. Most of my cronies in this aren't shall we say 'formally trained'.


A client of mine, commenting on craigslist in particular and the lowballing that goes on there for exceptional talent at little or no cost, told me that in business you could only take your pick at two of these three things, fast, cheap, good. Makes sense. You can't have something that's good if its cheap and done fast, you can't have something that's done quickly if it's cheap and good and you can't have something that's CHEAP if its done good and fast..

blew my poo poo mind away because of how true it is,

I would search your pool of friends and see if there are any talented people to help you with your film before approaching the outside world..

$50 does seem insulting. I would just pay nothing and make sure they were well fed and comfortable. If you're gonna pay them, pay them normal day rates.
 
For reference, on a short film your minimum day rate for professionals would be $150 a day for a camera operator (not a DP, just a camera operator), $200 a day for a sound mixer. Now keep in mind that these bargain basement prices and don't include renting equipment, insurance or craft services.

Just be realistic, if all you can afford is $50 then don't call it fee or salary. Find professionals who will shoot your film for the love of it and tell them you will give them gas money.

Rob
 
dstevens said:
I was wondering about some young person just out of college.... They don't come with years of experience, but they would have some formal training, and could do a reasonable job, and find fifty a meaningful amount?
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That's not even minimum wage, dude!

Without pay, about the only thing you can offer is joint ownership of the product (in the form of shares) and empty promises of future work, etc.
 
$50 isn't much pay, but it buys a lot of beer/wine/presents/fuel. People may like that more - it seems more generous and thoughtful.
 
thisiswells said:
That's not even minimum wage, dude!
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Yes, yes I know it's not minimum wage or anything like regular rates. It just seems getting people with good technical skills to work on a no-budget is hard without a track record of outstanding films. Getting a track record of outstanding films is difficult without people with high technical skills.

Not that I'm completely skill-less, but seems like it would be a huge help to enlist a good dp and sound person to improve the films and to learn from.

I agree adding in money for gas and food (and parking in my area) would definitely sweeten the pot. If calling the amount a stipend makes it less traumatic to accept, then sure, here's your stipend. Personally I take money under all labels, bonus, stipend, whatever. But that's because I'm a whore. :)

I guess I'm just proposing this is the usual no-budget affair, BUT I'm actually trying to pay actual money, however small to get a higher level of expertise and commitment. I don't expect Nancy Schreiber to sign on. I'm just saying if you're local to my area, my gig will be relatively short, it'll be fun, won't cost you anything out of pocket and a few extra bucks in your pocket when it's finished.

Of course, people get on screen credit, recommendations, use it in their demo reel, etc but it's a good idea to make it explicit. For what it's worth, I'd put links on my website to collaborator's websites.
 
Here's your problem:

I'm actually trying to pay actual money
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$50 is not Actual Money. If you think that will attract a skilled pro, you're wrong. But good advice has been given here.
 
dougspice said:
$50 is not Actual Money. If you think that will attract a skilled pro, you're wrong. But good advice has been given here.
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OK, OK. Just trying to think outside the box, but I do appreciate everyone's feedback. No offense.
 
On average my expandable bill for a 10 hour day is $15. What it would cost to even rent my most basic of audio packages is $150. All of my equipment is insured and that is money out of my pocket. Lastly, even on very cheap budget productions I consume at least $5 worth of food and coffee everyday. Nothing will kill your production quicker then poor/no krafty.

I understand what you are trying to do dstevens but you have to realize professionals get calls like yours EVERYDAY. As much as we would love to help out some kid with real talent, you learn early on to have a minimum day wage and never to go under it. Friends or quid pro quo, fine. Everyone else has to pony up a minimum dayrate. It's not being harsh but realize that this is what we do to put roof over our heads and food on our kids plate.

When I turn down these gigs I offer up two possilbe solutions for their production. One is to find an up and comer. Like you said, a recent graduate or someone who has worked under a professional and is looking to start building their resume.

The second solution is take the time to save up the money to hire a professional. If you have something you think is worth festival submission then take the time to get the money to do it right. If you are looking to learn on your own project then understand that peoples time is money and you are looking for an education by using someone's time. When you say, "I don't have money to pay you for your time", you are essentially telling them that you believe while your time is worth money (whatever you do for a living), you won't apply that time of yours to paying for theirs.

If you really want to learn then you should be the one volunteering your time to work on a smaller independent picture that has professionals on it (ie an intership). This is the route most film and video professionals take to learning the profession.

No offense, we were all there once.

Good luck
 
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