Highlights and External Recorders

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DustBowl

Active member
I've had my AF for a couple months now and have been shooting a lot. Like several shooters, I am really disappointed with the highlight handling of the AF. For me, it is the biggest problems with the camera. I have been hired a few times as a shooter only, turing the raw footage over to another editor. These folks have generally liked the image (I shoot very flat) but their one complaint were the highlights.

My question is, has anyone, using an external recorder, seen a big difference in the highlight handing? I'm curious how much better the picture looks in terms of visible blacks and highlights going to 4:2:2 color.
 
Close to the top. But, sometimes you can't help getting a little splash of highlight. So, I'll get a good reading across the WFM with a spike mixed in. I'm not talking about a complete blow out across the frame. I shoot a lot of interviews. My shooting style hasn't changed at all. I frequently use natural light mixed with soft boxes. Also a lot of interviews outdoors with nothing other than natural light - no bounce cards or scrims. Before I got my AF I shot with an HPX170. I was always pleased with the way the 170 handled the range of highs and lows. The difference, AVCHD 4:2:0 vs DVCPROHD 4:2:2.
 
I also have issues with the highlight handling of this camera. I have tried everything except DRS to try and reign the highlights in. Have you tried DRS+1?
 
I find that when you can't control over exposing, shooting with Cine-D is not great. I usually go with HD NORM with a Low Knee. Also, it's so important to get a proper white balance.
 
I try and underexposure a tad - really helps with the highlights. Generally I think that slight underexposure is better with this camera.

Screen Shot 2011-11-05 at 16.39.05.jpg

This is one example where exposure is critical and this shot is raw out of the camera. It looked under on the waveform.
 
Here's another couple of tricky highlight examples that the camera coped well with I think.

Screen Shot 2011-11-05 at 16.42.36.jpgScreen Shot 2011-11-05 at 16.41.41.jpg

Only just a very slight tweak to the top end to get these highlights in check.
 
Exposing is key. It just won't handle things as easily as some other cameras. Iv'e really had to learn to use my waveform and trust it. There's this stupid problem with my brain where if I see lots of things under 50% I think "oh gosh it's probably all crushed!!!" when things are exactly where they should be with very little over 60%.
 
Where things sit in the wfm ( scope) should correspond to their reflectance values. Exposure is determined by where the d.p wishes to sit those values in the final image. eg a bright white wall exposed at 50% on the scope will become a gray wall. At 5% on the scope...it will be almost black.

BTW - I do agree that this camera ( maybe the codec) makes highlight management more difficult than any other I have ever dealt with. Particularly spectral highlights. Only solution is lighting control and exposure management within the dynamic range of the camera.

Maybe 90% is the "new white" ( highlight) with thie AF100!


Note: I will (must) do a "highlights handling" test with my BM Hyperdeck Shuttle in regard to the O.Ps original question.
 
Shooter said:
BTW - I do agree that this camera ( maybe the codec) makes highlight management more difficult than any other I have ever dealt with. Particularly spectral highlights. Only solution is lighting control and exposure management within the dynamic range of the camera.
Click to expand...

I think you're correct about the codec. And, not AVCCAM in general but specifically how the software of this camera handles it. I think Panasonic should fix the issue and give us a firmware update.

Shooter said:
Note: I will (must) do a "highlights handling" test with my BM Hyperdeck Shuttle in regard to the O.Ps original question.
Click to expand...

Awesome! That would be great!
 
FWIW. I spent a little time at ABEL CINE the other day and they had a FS 100, F3, AF 100 and HPX 250 in the showroom all trained on a lit scene. I think all 3 large sensor cameras in this case have highlight handling issues and to my eye they wasn't a huge difference between them. A difference yes, but not a huge difference. The HPX 250 had the best highlight handling of the 4 cameras.

So I say give us an AF with 50 mbs AC ultra and a little more video processing to go with the better recording format and let the good times roll.
 
Here are some screen grabs from FCP to help illustrate my experience of highlights with the AF:

Hallway Post Correction.jpgHallway Pre Correction.jpgInterview Pre Correction.jpgInterview Post Correction.jpgFeather Exposure.jpg

Hope this helps.

As you can see, I was experiencing some peaking but nothing ugly. With a slight tweak in post, they look fine to my eyes. The feather shot was better exposed off the bat.

And this is my scene file.

Detail Level -3
V Detail Level -5
Detail Coring +2
Chroma Level - 2
Chroma Phase -3
Master Ped 0
A.Iris Level 0
DRS OFF
Gamma Cine-Like V
Knee Auto
Matrix Norm2
Skin Tone DTL OFF
 
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you can let things blow out, just have to know how to deal with it in post to make it a little more pleasing to look at :

bizmiss01.jpg
 
Well posted jonathon.

Everything in the scopes is exactly what I would of expected from all those scenes.

The feather shot is perfectly exposed to reveal detail in the white and that fact is clearly shown in the scope as well. If you had exposed it up towards 100%...the detail would have vanished.

BTW: Tip for anyone who does not know...different colors have different luminance reflectance values. They display levels differently in the scope under the same illumination. Basic fact of light physics is colors reflect light differently to each other. That means the scopes may not always tell the same story without interpretation.
 
This is the best post I have read in a long while.

Man, have we come a long way in learning the capabilities of this camera in the last 10 months.

Highlight handling is critical with the AF100. I recently worked with a DP who believed simply that shadows are dark for a reason - duh, there's no light there so quit exposing for shadows and keep your highlights in check.

I expose for highlight management via the waveform and, if I need to, can adjust shadows in post via the gamma curve.

The fact is, there is little post management for blown out highlights - kind of like shooting on Velvia or the old Ektachrome transparency film.

The samples shown in this thread are perfect examples of what experience has taught us in the last year.

Shooter is right - 90ire is the new max, not 100 and definitely not 105.

Jonathan proved it.
 
One thing Scott.

I actually "expose" for the shadows also but I do it with light control and not the aperture or other camera controls. eg more light, less light, fill or negative fill.
and I use the scopes to assist in this. Trust the scopes "first and always" is my advice to anyone.

I usually leave a bit of "foot" room so that I can adjust it in post though as well. (Protect the highlights and the shadows is kind of what we do.

The Pansonic is excellent in the shadows through the mids to about 95% ish Highlights. Above that requires management while shooting becaue post options are a bit more limited.

I am now very interested to see if my Hyperdeck shuttle ( uncompressed mov) performs any better in the regards of highlights. Will test it on a shoot coming Thursday.

I am not convinced its the CODEC yet. My guess is... its the sensor.
 
I agree with Shooter, I don't think it's the codec. I have been using a Hyperdeck for the last month or two and see no difference in the highlight handling between AVC and uncompressed. I'll try to get some test shots this week to share.

I have the waveform monitor on the TV Logic on all the time. It the only way to go imho. Never go over 95 unless I'm looking for an intentional blowout.
 
Thread jack

Hey Stephen . I am keen to start a fresh thread on the Hyperdeck Shuttle and its Pros and Cons.

Would you participate?

Trying to rationalise why I have one after my initial tests did not indicate any reason to have it in my kit.

I have not done my post tests yet and the highlight test may also show me some value (though I think not).
 
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