Help with AVCHD Transcoding in PC

[lirany]

Hi,
Since native AVCHD editing isn't possible on my computer I am trying other approaches.
I am currently editing in premiere CS3 (for better integration with AE CS3 and I'm very used to it).

1. Transcoding to DVCProHD: with MainConcept free transcoder. it's good for 720p but in 1080p premiere CS3 isn't working so well with any progressive footage (something with the pulldown after the transcode) not sure if it's a problem with premiere or the transcoder. Also, 1080p DVCPROHD is not playing back realtime.
I've heard that you lose quite a lot of details after transcoding to 720p so maybe that's not even an option.

2. Transcoding to BlackMagic Intensity: With blackmagic's free drivers I can transcode the footage (With virtualdub and Avisynth) to M-Jpeg or Blackmagic Uncompressed 10/8bit 4:2/4:2/4 footage. it's working great and very fast (it comes with premiere presets) but I get poor preview quality for some reason (maybe beacuse I don't have the actual intensity card).

3. Transcoding to DNxHD: I've heard good things about this codec. so I've transcoded AVCHD to DNxHD (720p with ffmpeg, Avanti, Avisynth at 90mbps) and I import that in premiere and I can playback just fine but when dropping to the timeline it needs further transcoding since premiere can't edit DNxHD nativly (or maybe it can... I've been working in "Desktop mode").

4. CIneForm Prospect HD: it's not free so it's already a problem. but even if I were to invest in this it's not working so smoothly on my computer. applying transitions causes weird hickups, preview takes time to buffer etc.

What I want is to find peace in this mess....
I want a free "lossless" codec that I can edit nativly in premiere CS3 (I really liked the DNxHD setup but I have to find a way for premiere to edit with it as is).

Am I asking to much? Should I replace my Premiere ASAP (To What??!?) ? Do I have something so horrible in my specs that causes me these problems?

I would appreciate any help.

My System:
CPU: Intel core 2 duo 6400 @ 2.13ghz, GPU: Geforce 8400GS, Hard drives: 3X500GB 7200RPM Sata 3gb/s, Memory: 2GB @ 667mhz, Premiere Pro CS3 .

 

[Hidef1080]

"Am I asking to much? Should I replace my Premiere ASAP (To What??!?) ?"

I don't think you're asking too much but if you are at the point of replacing Premiere, why not just upgrade to CS4?
You can still use AE CS3 with Premiere CS4.

I moved to Vegas but I was not working with After Effects so it seems as if you have more invested than I did and because of that I would look into CS4 before I move to a new system.

 

[lirany]

I tried CS4 before but I had poor preview quality with SD videos, and I will still be editing some SD footage.
My EX1 videos looked good though... maybe I'll give it another try.
But what are the improvements? What's different with the transcoding? will I be able to use any of the solutions above?

How's vegas's performance compare to premiere? do you like it better? how's AVCHD in there?

 

[Green Hornet]

You should be able to edit easy with the system you have.
I am only using a laptop with Core 2 duo 8100 processor 4 gigs of ram and 5400 rpm hard drive, and it cuts like butter.

I had Premiere CS3 and it worked better than CS4 does when using Aspect HD.
I edited HMC150 footage as well as Canon HF100 avchd files after transcoding to cineform.

Since upgrading to CS4, I have to edit straight AVCHD, and it is painful, or convert to WMV file and edit that, or p2 file and edit that. I have core codec installed and not really sure what part it plays (except that when transcoding to cineform, it is used to decode the AVCHD files making the whole process about 3 times faster than real time).

So if I were you, I would hold off on upgrading to CS4 untill cineform is fully supported and just use CS3 and transcode with the inexpensive neo scene.

From the looks of it, it is basically aspect HD, but charging only $129 for it.
Great for the new guys, but the guys who had Aspect HD, had to pay $500, and then they discontinued Aspect HD forcing you to buy Prospect HD if you want to use CS4.

Currently CS4 is not supported by cineform (Jan 13 2009), no presets, and usually will crash unless you modify the codec priority and disable mainconcept codec. That works if you have core codec installed, and core seems to work better (more control over the color and settings), just don't know how it will be implimented when cineform supports Premiere CS4.

 

[PerroneFord]

3. Transcoding to DNxHD: I've heard good things about this codec. so I've transcoded AVCHD to DNxHD (720p with ffmpeg, Avanti, Avisynth at 90mbps) and I import that in premiere and I can playback just fine but when dropping to the timeline it needs further transcoding since premiere can't edit DNxHD nativly (or maybe it can... I've been working in "Desktop mode").


I want a free "lossless" codec that I can edit nativly in premiere CS3 (I really liked the DNxHD setup but I have to find a way for premiere to edit with it as is).

I am going to be VERY curious if you get a solution to this problem. DNxHD is not lossless, but it's pretty dang good.

 

[lirany]

Thanks Green Hornet, I tried CS4 before and was very unhappy with perfomance. I am also trying to avoid using CineForm as much as I can, I didn't like prospect HD so much, but maybe Neo Scene is different.

I am going to be VERY curious if you get a solution to this problem. DNxHD is not lossless, but it's pretty dang good.

I've just compared a 720/23.976p footage from DNxHD (transcoded from AVCHD at 90mbps) to DVCProHD (transcoded with the free tools) and the results speek for themselves.
Image from DNxHD was better (maybe because of the higher bitrate...).
But I'd really like to work with this codec.

1. Do you know of any solution when using Premiere CS3/CS4 with DNxHD?
2. I have no problem switching to Vegas if it's any good. (although I've been a premiere guy for over 8 years) can it work natively with the DNxHD?
3. One problem I do have with Avid codec is that it won't support 720/25p which I believe will be my main preset. is there a workaround? If I'm moving to vegas are there any Good different transcoding options? (Canopus HD?)

Thanks

 

[PerroneFord]

I've just compared a 720/23.976p footage from DNxHD (transcoded from AVCHD at 90mbps) to DVCProHD (transcoded with the free tools) and the results speek for themselves.
Image from DNxHD was better (maybe because of the higher bitrate...).
But I'd really like to work with this codec.

DVCProHD has a higher bitrate. It's 100Mbps.

1. Do you know of any solution when using Premiere CS3/CS4 with DNxHD?

I don't. I don't work with Premiere any longer.

2. I have no problem switching to Vegas if it's any good. (although I've been a premiere guy for over 8 years) can it work natively with the DNxHD?

Vegas isn't bad, deending on your needs. I switched from Premiere years ago and have not ventured back. However, if I needed to collaborate between other editors, or other shops, I might well use something else. Vegas is fine if you intend to finish in it. But if you intend to move from it to something else for finishing, it's not as nice as some other programs.

3. One problem I do have with Avid codec is that it won't support 720/25p which I believe will be my main preset. is there a workaround? If I'm moving to vegas are there any Good different transcoding options? (Canopus HD?)

DNxHD does work with 720/25p and says so right in the white paper. It's a minomer that people see that their particular framesize and bitrate are not listed in the pulldown. Those are merely *suggestions* of bitrates for a type of footage. I have encoded 2k and 3k footage with DNxHD, and I have used all kinds of bitrates on all different frame sizes and frame rates. Just select the frame rate you want, and ignore what the codec says. At least that works in Vegas. Not sure if Premiere overrides the codec the same way. But regardless, the Avid DNxHD white paper lists 720/25p natively at 60, 90, and 90x rates.

And yes, Vegas does edit these files natively. In fact, one of Vegas's strengths is that it doesn't transcode. I can drop any file type Vegas understands right onto the timeline and it never transcodes. AVCHD, Mpeg2, AVI, PNG, DNxHD, whatever. I transcode to DNxHD to get to an intraframe codec instead of the interframe codec my camera shoots.

 

[lirany]

Just installed Vegas, looks a bit ugly but still looks much better than Avid media composer.
I've tested several files but have yet to make it work.
1. AVCHD from HMC150 makes the program crash.
2. It won't open P2-MXF files.
Is there any way to open them?

Wow, I played around with it and it's really cool! performance is much better, and I see some really cool features that I like, and it seems to support my beloved "Magic Bullet Looks"!
Have premiere been a bad dream?
Anything I should know about the software? any weird stuff? known issues? does it have some After effects abilities (more than premiere)?

It actually bought me when installation took only a few seconds while premiere took over 10 minutes...

I'd love it if you'll answer my questions! thanks!

 

[PerroneFord]

Just installed Vegas, looks a bit ugly but still looks much better than Avid media composer.
I've tested several files but have yet to make it work.
1. AVCHD from HMC150 makes the program crash.

I don't have any HMC150 files to try. Could someone FTP a short clip to me?

2. It won't open P2-MXF files.
Is there any way to open them?

Raylight is the only way. This is a big pain in the rear. Sony and Panasonic often don't play nicely together. Sony doesn't understand the Panny P2 files. To be fair, it's not the only program that doesn't. Panasonic really should have sorted this out with a converter or something.

Wow, I played around with it and it's really cool! performance is much better, and I see some really cool features that I like, and it seems to support my beloved "Magic Bullet Looks"!

Yes, some Magic Bullet Looks come free with Vegas.

Anything I should know about the software? any weird stuff? known issues? does it have some After effects abilities (more than premiere)?

There are LOTS of quirks in Vegas. I suggest you play around with it a while. Shoot a 10 minute short, edit it in Vegas, and produce some web versions, some mpeg2 files like you were going to DVD, some mp4 files for streaming, maybe some windows media encoded files.

Set up your disk for a project like you normally do. You'll see files get created that you are not familiar with. Create some transitions. Do some titles. (For the record, titling SUCKS in Vegas), create some music for your project either in stereo or 5.1 surround sound. Do some color correction and grading.

It actually bought me when installation took only a few seconds while premiere took over 10 minutes...

It's fast, that's for sure.

I'd love it if you'll answer my questions! thanks!

We'll try, but you might want to ask them outside the HMC150 area.

 

[lirany]

Thanks A lot for the reply!
Panasonic AVCHD crash: Updated to 8.0c works like a charm.
2 quick very basic questions.
1. When I work with a DNxHD footage in a project, and let's say I add a transition, or any effect, what will it be rendered if I render the timeline?(what codec? will it use DNxHD or some other codec?)
2. In premiere when you press the "Enter" key it would render everything that needed to be rendered. I see no such option in Vegas, How can I render only what needs to be rendered (stuff that cannot play in realtime)

Thanks

 

[PerroneFord]

2 quick very basic questions.
1. When I work with a DNxHD footage in a project, and let's say I add a transition, or any effect, what will it be rendered if I render the timeline?(what codec? will it use DNxHD or some other codec?)

This is going to be something of a paradigm shift for you. Vegas does not render the timeline like Premiere. If you need to render something that is not playable in real time, you do a "selective pre-render". You get to choose from any .avi codec, .mpg codec, or the MXF files options. Vegas then builds a small file with just that section of the video that you highlighted. If you have adequate RAM, you can also do this in memory instead of pre-rendering to disk. It's called Dynamic RAM preview. So play with that. I've never used it though.

2. In premiere when you press the "Enter" key it would render everything that needed to be rendered. I see no such option in Vegas, How can I render only what needs to be rendered (stuff that cannot play in realtime)

See my previous comment. However, I don't know how to make it pre-render multiple sections like Premiere used to do. I don't do this very often as my machine usually plays right through whatever I've done.

 

[lirany]

Ok, so that's the big difference...
I'll see if I can manage with this new setup.
what's great is that I think A slightly faster machine than mine can run AVCHD without a problem with this program, it's so much faster than premiere.

BTW how do you output DNxHD from Vegas, I don't see it on the encoders list.

And do you get on your machine Real-time DNxHD 1080p Magic bullet preview?
What kind of machine do you have?

 

[PerroneFord]

BTW how do you output DNxHD from Vegas, I don't see it on the encoders list.

Download the codec, install, select Render as Quicktime (.mov), and select Avid DNxHD from the list.

 

[lirany]

Download the codec, install, select Render as Quicktime (.mov), and select Avid DNxHD from the list.

I have that in "Render as..." but not in "Selectively prerender video..." all I have there is ".Avi" ".MXF" ".mpg" but not quicktime.
Also, is there any script to pre-render all Active "event FX" (that were not pre-rendered before) in the timeline? if not, is it easy to build scripts for Vegas?

 

[lirany]

I've done some more testing on my computer and I really don't understand what's going on.
I've accepted my CS3 gives poor performance on 1080p P2 files.
But now I've tested DNxHD at 1080p with 115/36 rates and both gives me on Vegas 10-13fps of preview.
The original AVCHD file plays 20-23.976fps on vegas so how could this be?
Also DNxHD 720p at 90mbps gave me quite good results.
And I have edited with this computer XDCam-HD at 1080p (in CS3) without problems whatsoever.
It's like my computer don't like 1080p footage comimg from the HMC150.
Original footage plays back just fine on my BSPlayer if youre interested.

Do you have any idea what's causing this?

 

[PerroneFord]

I have that in "Render as..." but not in "Selectively prerender video..." all I have there is ".Avi" ".MXF" ".mpg" but not quicktime.
Also, is there any script to pre-render all Active "event FX" (that were not pre-rendered before) in the timeline? if not, is it easy to build scripts for Vegas?

Pre-Render options are limited to video-for-windows based stuff and sony builtins. When you render the full timeline, you can choose what you want.

I don't use scripts so you'll have to speak to someone else. Maybe David Jimerson or Edward Troxel will come along and help out. But I don't know if they frequent the HMC150 area, which is why I suggested you move this discussion. I'd suggest the Sony Vegas area.

 

[PerroneFord]

I've done some more testing on my computer and I really don't understand what's going on.
I've accepted my CS3 gives poor performance on 1080p P2 files.
But now I've tested DNxHD at 1080p with 115/36 rates and both gives me on Vegas 10-13fps of preview.
The original AVCHD file plays 20-23.976fps on vegas so how could this be?
Also DNxHD 720p at 90mbps gave me quite good results.
And I have edited with this computer XDCam-HD at 1080p (in CS3) without problems whatsoever.
It's like my computer don't like 1080p footage comimg from the HMC150.
Original footage plays back just fine on my BSPlayer if youre interested.

Do you have any idea what's causing this?

1080p is a LOT more data than 720p. The two are not directly comparable. The original AVCHD file is encoded at 24 Mpbs. So the data rate is much less than the 36 Mpbs rate of the 1080p file with the DNxHD one.

XDCamHD is Mpeg2 (easier to decode) at 35 Mbps so about as easy to work with as the files off the EX1/EX3.

The 1080p files coming off the HMC150 are simply beyond most home PCs playing them back real time. I'd be willing to bet the machine specs for playing those files back in real time are going to approach machine specs for playing back uncompressed HD back in real time. Maybe less disk intensive, but certainly as processor intensive.

Other than that, I don't know why your computer is exhibiting the issues it is.

 

[lirany]

1080p is a LOT more data than 720p. The two are not directly comparable. The original AVCHD file is encoded at 24 Mpbs. So the data rate is much less than the 36 Mpbs rate of the 1080p file with the DNxHD one.

XDCamHD is Mpeg2 (easier to decode) at 35 Mbps so about as easy to work with as the files off the EX1/EX3.

The 1080p files coming off the HMC150 are simply beyond most home PCs playing them back real time. I'd be willing to bet the machine specs for playing those files back in real time are going to approach machine specs for playing back uncompressed HD back in real time. Maybe less disk intensive, but certainly as processor intensive.

Other than that, I don't know why your computer is exhibiting the issues it is.

I've worked with the EX1 before and it was so much easier editing with.
I have to say I'm concidering getting an EX1 over this camera, if KxS really works than maybe I should.
But people are editing 1080p footage off their HVX200 without any problems so maybe my computer is the one giving me trouble.
I think I'll stick with 720p P2 files for now. they seem to work the best with Premiere CS3. (But I still hate it that I lose quality with the transcoding).

 

[PerroneFord]

I use KxS every time I shoot. LOVE IT! I still have the SxS card that shipped with the camera, but honestly, I've never really needed it. I'll keep it around for over cranking projects though.

You are going to lose quality with nearly every transcode unless you go uncompressed or lossless. I've done both. You just have to deal with the tradeoffs.

 

[Green Hornet]

For decoding (transcoding or playing back) AVCHD.
The core codec will playback the best, and fastest (more frames).

If the core codec does not allow you to play back your AVCHD files at 24 frames a second on a core 2 duo, you have some other problem most likely.

You may be better served trying to stick to 720p files untill your hardware or software improves.

I