Yeah IPB is more complex and will be more laggy, even when it plays smoothly, vs. ALL-I.
FS7: Help! Green Screen After Reffects in Custom Mode
- Thread starter Cynthia Webster
- Start date
Yeah IPB is more complex and will be more laggy, even when it plays smoothly, vs. ALL-I.
thirdyearff
Active member
Agreed...no reason to transcode XAVC-I to ProRes. I've shot a ton of green/blue screen with my Fs7 over the years...both slog and HG and it keys reasonably well. I say reasonably as compared to r3d or Arriraw files. I can't imagine flipping to ProRes 444 is going to make much of a difference for the reasons already stated...though i've never tried it but have never felt the need either as there are to many other tricks to pulling a decent key in post.
I work w/ Pro Res as much as i do with XAVC and i see no difference in over all performance between the two and i'm simply linking to the footage on my array.
I have a home system that is an older 2011 iMac running Autodesk Smoke software with a Promise Pegasus R6 (TB1) array and at work i have a tricked out 2017 iMac Pro running Autodesk Flame with a Promise Pegasus R6 (TB3) array...both systems have no problem crunching through XAVC footage.
So without seeing a sample of the footage, but based on your camera, your set up, your lens choice (i use Xeens as well) i'm also going with user error in the post end of things....so bullet dodged.
I work w/ Pro Res as much as i do with XAVC and i see no difference in over all performance between the two and i'm simply linking to the footage on my array.
I have a home system that is an older 2011 iMac running Autodesk Smoke software with a Promise Pegasus R6 (TB1) array and at work i have a tricked out 2017 iMac Pro running Autodesk Flame with a Promise Pegasus R6 (TB3) array...both systems have no problem crunching through XAVC footage.
So without seeing a sample of the footage, but based on your camera, your set up, your lens choice (i use Xeens as well) i'm also going with user error in the post end of things....so bullet dodged.
Run&Gun
Veteran
Good green screen/chroma key will always be more about, and will have far greater influence from, proper technique(lighting, subject placement, etc.) than which codec is shot on. I've shot green screen on Betacam, DVCPRO HD, Canon MXF, XAVC, ProRes 4:2:2, and Sony RAW.
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Cynthia Webster
Active member
Hi Doug!
Lens is a Xeen 85mm. I have a full set of Xeen cinema lenses in e-mount and am very very happy with them.
They're the original ones with 114mm fronts, as they are releasing a new "CF" or Carbon Fiber set which are lighter and smaller.
The new ones are still made of aluminum but have an outer sleeve of carbon fiber. Surprisingly they are not really that much lighter.
They average a half pound less than the standard 2.5 or 3 pound lens.
I'm a fan of SmallRig Accessories and use their smallest base plate, top plate, rods, and shoulder plate and pad.
Inverting the Sony microphone holder lowers the Mic enough that the whole camera - built with base plate, rods, and viewfinder
will set straight down into a large Pelican case. (this way I never ever disconnect the viewfinder plug for example).
Sachtler Ace / Manfrotto Follow Focus, JTZ DP30 Carbon Fiber 4x5.65" Matte Box, Sontronics STC-1 Mic w' Hypercardioid capsule.
100mm Manfrotto Carbon Fiber 2-Stage Tripod w' Manfrotto 526mm ART Fluid Head. Wooden Camera WC Pro Power Plate & Bracket.
I also use the Sony Handgrip with an Arri style rosette on a SmallRig short dogbone which simulates the handgrip on my Aaton...
Lens is a Xeen 85mm. I have a full set of Xeen cinema lenses in e-mount and am very very happy with them.
They're the original ones with 114mm fronts, as they are releasing a new "CF" or Carbon Fiber set which are lighter and smaller.
The new ones are still made of aluminum but have an outer sleeve of carbon fiber. Surprisingly they are not really that much lighter.
They average a half pound less than the standard 2.5 or 3 pound lens.
I'm a fan of SmallRig Accessories and use their smallest base plate, top plate, rods, and shoulder plate and pad.
Inverting the Sony microphone holder lowers the Mic enough that the whole camera - built with base plate, rods, and viewfinder
will set straight down into a large Pelican case. (this way I never ever disconnect the viewfinder plug for example).
Sachtler Ace / Manfrotto Follow Focus, JTZ DP30 Carbon Fiber 4x5.65" Matte Box, Sontronics STC-1 Mic w' Hypercardioid capsule.
100mm Manfrotto Carbon Fiber 2-Stage Tripod w' Manfrotto 526mm ART Fluid Head. Wooden Camera WC Pro Power Plate & Bracket.
I also use the Sony Handgrip with an Arri style rosette on a SmallRig short dogbone which simulates the handgrip on my Aaton...
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Doug Jensen
Carbonite Member
Thanks for the info. It's always interesting to hear (and see) how other people have rigged their cameras. I like that you have invested in some nice cinema primes instead of going with SLR lenses. If I didn't already have a full set of Cine-Xenars I probably would have gone for the Xeens, as well. I don't know how you can put up with that Manfrotto tripod/head, though. I think an upgrade to an O'Connor or Sachtler ought to be on your road map. 
Cynthia Webster
Active member
I too enjoy seeing other shooter's rigs. I used to have a Sachtler 7+7 head with my Aaton, a matte box, and Cooke zoom.
It was a really great set-up and I put over a million feet of film through it before selling it in '97. I'm sure you remember that
we all knew that High Definition was coming, but nobody was sure what form it would actually take.
During this time I sold everything and took a few years off to take care of my parents through their autumn years.
When the time was right I went shopping for tripods and found the 100mm Manfrotto Art 526 fluid head to be every bit as good
as my old Sachtler at half the price. (it is Manfrotto's top of the line head). It uses their 357 quick release plate and I bought several of them
along with receivers and use them on and Induro hi-hi hat (mini tripod, really great) and camera cart, prep table, Fig Rig, Jib arm, gimbal, etc
This standardization really speeds things up on set.
My first Digital camera was a Sony FS100 and I got a handful of auto-focus lenses including the 18-200 kit lens.
Eventually I added the wonderful Sony 10-18mm f4, and the ok Sony Zeiss 24mm 1.8, the Sony 35mm 1.8, and the Sony 50mm 1.8 S-35 lenses.
I actually shot several low budget features with these and was impressed with the quality when projected in theaters!
Then the FS700 came out and while tempted I kept on with the FS100 until the FS7 was released and am happy that I waited for a
camera that could actually record 4K without lugging around a separate recorder.
Now I'm really really wanting the new FX9, but also see it as a potential interim camera much like the FS700.
(should I wait for a Sony e-Mount camera that can actually ~record~ 6K on board? I think not as I don't want to wait for a new Codec).
So after supplementing my package with auto-focus Sony FF 85mm 1.8 and a Sigma APS-C 16mm 1.4 lenses, I decided to expand beyond
Sony with film making accessories that are not Sony specific such as a set of Xeen lenses, and a Mattebox & Follow Focus.
So now I regularly carry (18) lenses to the set from 10mm to 500mm and ~still~ need a Venus Probe, 9mm Rectilinear, and Voigtlander
65mm and 110mm, a fisheye, and an Angineaux zoom, and anamorphics, not to mention a stereo shotgun, and the Sony Dual Diversity Wireless,
and a CameraGoat Slider, and the large MoviGimbal, a new Mac lapttop, anda', anda' anda' ...
HELP! I'm caught in an Arms Race in the Hollywood Cinematography Market! Must Have More Stuff! Aaaaaa!
It was a really great set-up and I put over a million feet of film through it before selling it in '97. I'm sure you remember that
we all knew that High Definition was coming, but nobody was sure what form it would actually take.
During this time I sold everything and took a few years off to take care of my parents through their autumn years.
When the time was right I went shopping for tripods and found the 100mm Manfrotto Art 526 fluid head to be every bit as good
as my old Sachtler at half the price. (it is Manfrotto's top of the line head). It uses their 357 quick release plate and I bought several of them
along with receivers and use them on and Induro hi-hi hat (mini tripod, really great) and camera cart, prep table, Fig Rig, Jib arm, gimbal, etc
This standardization really speeds things up on set.
My first Digital camera was a Sony FS100 and I got a handful of auto-focus lenses including the 18-200 kit lens.
Eventually I added the wonderful Sony 10-18mm f4, and the ok Sony Zeiss 24mm 1.8, the Sony 35mm 1.8, and the Sony 50mm 1.8 S-35 lenses.
I actually shot several low budget features with these and was impressed with the quality when projected in theaters!
Then the FS700 came out and while tempted I kept on with the FS100 until the FS7 was released and am happy that I waited for a
camera that could actually record 4K without lugging around a separate recorder.
Now I'm really really wanting the new FX9, but also see it as a potential interim camera much like the FS700.
(should I wait for a Sony e-Mount camera that can actually ~record~ 6K on board? I think not as I don't want to wait for a new Codec).
So after supplementing my package with auto-focus Sony FF 85mm 1.8 and a Sigma APS-C 16mm 1.4 lenses, I decided to expand beyond
Sony with film making accessories that are not Sony specific such as a set of Xeen lenses, and a Mattebox & Follow Focus.
So now I regularly carry (18) lenses to the set from 10mm to 500mm and ~still~ need a Venus Probe, 9mm Rectilinear, and Voigtlander
65mm and 110mm, a fisheye, and an Angineaux zoom, and anamorphics, not to mention a stereo shotgun, and the Sony Dual Diversity Wireless,
and a CameraGoat Slider, and the large MoviGimbal, a new Mac lapttop, anda', anda' anda' ...
HELP! I'm caught in an Arms Race in the Hollywood Cinematography Market! Must Have More Stuff! Aaaaaa!
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Cynthia Webster
Active member
Yes Captain Slo mo, it sure is a never ending arms race that we all participate in, ain't it!
SO, Just to Put a Bow on all of this...
The Director/Editor (who's No Slouch BTW) called me out of the blue today to apologize for the wave of panic that he created last week.
He really did appreciate the feedback that I got from you all, as did I, especially the idea of using ULTRA in Adobe After Effects.
He said that XAVC still has some kind of artifacts, and that (I believe it is called KeyLight?) was easier originally because it integrates into After Effects automatically, where as ULTRA uses a different algorithm, and does not automatically transfer into AfterEffects/Premier as seamlessly.
He also stated that there are even some artifacts when using ProRes (instead of recording to XAVC) and these ProRes artifacts seem to him to be more "organic" and more like film grain. So, I think that I may be in the market for an XDC-FS7 to record ProRes to XQD cards in the future when shooting greenscreen. No one else has asked me for ProRes specifically, and personally I've been thinking ProRes less and less important with modern editing systems, but here is my experience.
Your mileage of course may vary, and I am all ears for your opinions and experiences here.
Cynthia Webster
DP Los Angeles
SO, Just to Put a Bow on all of this...
The Director/Editor (who's No Slouch BTW) called me out of the blue today to apologize for the wave of panic that he created last week.
He really did appreciate the feedback that I got from you all, as did I, especially the idea of using ULTRA in Adobe After Effects.
He said that XAVC still has some kind of artifacts, and that (I believe it is called KeyLight?) was easier originally because it integrates into After Effects automatically, where as ULTRA uses a different algorithm, and does not automatically transfer into AfterEffects/Premier as seamlessly.
He also stated that there are even some artifacts when using ProRes (instead of recording to XAVC) and these ProRes artifacts seem to him to be more "organic" and more like film grain. So, I think that I may be in the market for an XDC-FS7 to record ProRes to XQD cards in the future when shooting greenscreen. No one else has asked me for ProRes specifically, and personally I've been thinking ProRes less and less important with modern editing systems, but here is my experience.
Your mileage of course may vary, and I am all ears for your opinions and experiences here.
Cynthia Webster
DP Los Angeles
Doug Jensen
Carbonite Member
The XDCA unit is only going to allow recording ProRes in HD. No matter what someone thinks of XAVC, the better choice for green screen is always going to be XAVC 4K over ProRes HD. If you want to record 4K and ProRes, then a Odyssey or Atomos would be a better choice than an XDCA.
My opinion / suggestion - for what it's worth - would be along the lines of Doug's. I rented the Ext unit early on when I first bought my FS7 and tested shooting raw to the Odyssey - as well as a bit of ProRes internally. And I came to the same conclusion that many others did back then - that raw wasn't gaining much - nor was ProRes. (I don't do much green screen these days). I too have the occasional client that wants ProRes - and so my solution was to buy a Pix E5 (no longer made). But for less than the price of the extension unit - it has allowed me to have a nice small monitor (with great exposure tools and converts SDi /HDMI - while also giving you better LUT support for playback and overcranking) AND UHD recorder that I can use with other cameras than just my FS7. SO - if I were buying now- I'd have a look at one of the Atomos'...
And Keylight is great... used to use it in the old days with Final Cut 7.
Cynthia Webster
Active member
So Donny… How do you like Your new FX9?
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Its great.. needs the first FW update due in the spring .. personally I don't need to load custom LUT,s and have never shoot RAW.. higher FR in 6K scan is needed and apparently in the new FW V2.. S cinetone is big break through for Sony,and the dual ISO is also very good.. Variable ND is new for me and very nice.. and the down sampled 4K from 6K .. you can tell the difference .. the AF is better than canon but lacks touch screen .. so plus and minus there.. if I needed RAW it would be a bad choice.. if I needed to to show specific LUT,s to clients on monitor.s. at the moment it would be a bad choice.. I guess they cant step on the Venice toes too much.. but for the price and the intended market buyer.. its a steal.. and Im a Sony guy from way back.. if I was a c300 guy I would get the 500II straight way .. but yeah basically its a fine beast . as is the 500II Im sure.. I have just never had a canon camera , stick with what I know ..
Cynthia Webster
Active member
Me too, I've never shot RAW either until last week using the Odyssey recorder for 240 FPS. Fun!
Mostly shooting S-Log these days and looking at the direct output of the camera on external monitors without any LUTs.
For me it's become the new normal, and once I explain it to the clients they seem fine with that too,
(which sort of drives home in their minds that they're going to have to do some minor grading in post).
I think I'm going to love the CineTone and Dual ISO when eventually switching to an FX9.
Mostly shooting S-Log these days and looking at the direct output of the camera on external monitors without any LUTs.
For me it's become the new normal, and once I explain it to the clients they seem fine with that too,
(which sort of drives home in their minds that they're going to have to do some minor grading in post).
I think I'm going to love the CineTone and Dual ISO when eventually switching to an FX9.
The fx9 can out put Sony LUT,s.. in 4K.. but not HD at the moment ..you just cant load in your own LUT,s.. when I shoot Slog I do out put a straight rec709 to clients .. most just want to see a pretty picture , go to the craft table and look sort of like there is a reason for them to be there ..
.. S cinetone is a big step up.. equally important ,it also has much improved high light roll off.. with skin tone around 65% to give it the room to do so.. its almost certionly a better look than any editor/ director trying to be a colorist with slog footage TBH.. as per your recent experiences ..