Help: Film Quality Sound Recording

C

Cipher First

New member
Hi Guys

So with all the new era of digital cameras and 4k thing I couldn't find a suitable solution for Good cinematic sound recording.
I'm planning to make a short film after two months form now but I have this big problem which is Sound. Sound to me = Video to me it's like 50% of the whole thing.

So I'm here asking you which is the best way for sound recording during shooting a film I hate all the video-ish unrealistic sound recording I want something cinematic give me solutions I'm willing to pay all can to get a cinematic result in this matter.

If my topic isn't in the right place excuse me I'm new here.
 
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Cipher First said:
So I'm here asking you which is the best way for sound recording during shooting a film I hate all the video-ish unrealistic sound recording I want something cinematic give me solutions I'm willing to pay all can to get a cinematic result in this matter.
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If you are not a sound guy there is actually only ONE best way to get cinematic sound: hire professional sound guy(s). There is no bodgy way around it. You can get maybe 70-80% of the way if you put in a lot of work (practice/experience). But more likely you'll get 20-30% doing it yourself, especially if you aren't dedicated to the craft. A sound guy/girl has the knowledge, the equipment, the experience and the mojo. You can get by doing it yourself with a few tips but if you want the BEST, it can't be faked. No piece of equipment will fix everything anymore than a $10,000 guitar will teach you how to play. Additionally, if as you say you are willing to pay to get a cinematic result in this matter, hiring professionals will require with no more effort from yourself than a discussion about what you are trying to achieve and when to show up. To get the best out of your location sound recordings you may need a second professional for post. This will really take things to the next level. Each can do a good job, but combined their value is amplified (sorry) beyond the sum of their parts.

If you aren't that serious and you are just looking to get away from on-camera microphones then you may need to lower your expectations. A boomed mic will be a good start and someone other than yourself to do the booming and wear the headphones will be a start. The best solution in this case is still a sound guy but maybe target students of the craft who are keen for the experience.
 
Egg Born Son said:
If you are not a sound guy there is actually only ONE best way to get cinematic sound: hire professional sound guy(s). There is no bodgy way around it. You can get maybe 70-80% of the way if you put in a lot of work (practice/experience). But more likely you'll get 20-30% doing it yourself, especially if you aren't dedicated to the craft. A sound guy/girl has the knowledge, the equipment, the experience and the mojo. You can get by doing it yourself with a few tips but if you want the BEST, it can't be faked. No piece of equipment will fix everything anymore than a $10,000 guitar will teach you how to play. Additionally, if as you say you are willing to pay to get a cinematic result in this matter, hiring professionals will require with no more effort from yourself than a discussion about what you are trying to achieve and when to show up. To get the best out of your location sound recordings you may need a second professional for post. This will really take things to the next level. Each can do a good job, but combined their value is amplified (sorry) beyond the sum of their parts.

If you aren't that serious and you are just looking to get away from on-camera microphones then you may need to lower your expectations. A boomed mic will be a good start and someone other than yourself to do the booming and wear the headphones will be a start. The best solution in this case is still a sound guy but maybe target students of the craft who are keen for the experience.
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I agree with every word you said. Hiring someone for sound is the reasonable way to get this problem out of the way. BUT where I live there's no one could achieve what I want in this case so I figured I'll have to handle this thing as I handled every other thing I had to learn in my film making experiences. I don't know if it's only about expensive shotgun mic to get the cinematic sound but I don't believe this is the case.
 
Cipher First said:
I agree with every word you said. Hiring someone for sound is the reasonable way to get this problem out of the way. BUT where I live there's no one could achieve what I want in this case so I figured I'll have to handle this thing as I handled every other thing I had to learn in my film making experiences. I don't know if it's only about expensive shotgun mic to get the cinematic sound but I don't believe this is the case.
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While top-shelf pro level equipment is nice to have, the skill and attention to detail that the operator of the equipment brings to the table is vastly more important. And understand that recording on-set is just the first step in creating that Hollywood Sound. The actual sound track is a creation of post-production, built up layer upon layer upon layer in the editing suite.
 
Cipher First said:
I agree with every word you said. Hiring someone for sound is the reasonable way to get this problem out of the way. BUT where I live there's no one could achieve what I want in this case so I figured I'll have to handle this thing as I handled every other thing I had to learn in my film making experiences. I don't know if it's only about expensive shotgun mic to get the cinematic sound but I don't believe this is the case.
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Fair 'nuff, thought it might be option 2. That DVD is not comprehensive but the focus is on getting you sounding better instantly. I have it. Nothing in it is hard to apply. A followup is in the works that sounds like it will target giving the same instant improvements to post production.
 
Cipher First said:
So I'm here asking you which is the best way for sound recording during shooting a film I hate all the video-ish unrealistic sound recording I want something cinematic give me solutions I'm willing to pay all can to get a cinematic result in this matter..
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Not to pick on your post, but I see this all the time... What should I buy, money is no issue. And then after many posts recommending gear, the original poster comes back with something like... OK, what should I get if my budget is $125.

You say you are willing to pay all you can, so I will ask... Honestly what is your budget?
 
No, it isn't about just having an expensive shotgun mic. And honestly, if you had $20000 budget for top-drawer audio gear, it would be nearly worthless without somebody knowledgable to use it. And if you are implying that you are a "one-man band" with no experience, then you don't have the personnel to do quality audio. (Which is why hiring a professional was recommended.)
 
+11 to the above. Another common statement/complaint, "I spend a lot of money on expensive audio gear and my sound still sucks."
 
It sounds like we can limit this discussion to recording dialog. That's what really needs to be done at the same time the video is captured. Most of the rest of the "Hollywood sound" is post production.

The problem with being a one man band, and capturing both the video and the audio at the same time, is that you can't run both a camera and boom sound. Can't be in two places at once. So, if booming is out, you're left with lavaliers and plant mics. Done well they can be quite acceptable, but it's not going to come up to the level of well boomed dialog.

For narrative work, you're almost certainly going to be stuck with wireless. So look at the Sennheiser G3s for entry level, and the Lectros and Zaxcoms, etc. for professional level.

You'll need a good field mixer, like the Sound Devices units. You'll also need a good recorder. For one man band work, a combo unit would be nice, like the SD 633 maybe, or a Zaxcom Maxx.

The problem you'll have is trying to actually mix in the field. It takes your full attention, and you don't have it. So what you'll need to do is record each channel as an iso and mix in post. Which mostly points you back to separate mixers and recorders to get the number of tracks you'll need, whatever that may be.

An alternative perhaps would be to train someone to be your boom op. But since no one has trained you... this could be problematic.

Anyway, my hope is that this gets you thinking a bit. You'll need to define your problem before you can solve it.
 
Bruce touched on the topic but you have to realize that a LOT of that "cinematic" sound is postproduction. That doesn't diminish the fact that you NEED to get good production sound, but that is just the foundation.

The two big differences in the typical "low budget sound" and the typical "big budget sound" starts with production mixers who are good and are only focusing on getting clean dialog. The second is post. Most low budget films do most/ all of their "sound" work in the video editor. With limited tracks they tend to use a lot of "room tone" and then drop in a specific sound or two that they think is missing.

A big budget film will have a crew of people and their first step is to clear out everything on the production track except dialog. Actually possible because the film was shot with this work flow in mind so steps were taken to minimize all other sounds except dialog. Everything else will be built in post. All the ambiences all the door opens/ closes, all the footsteps, everything.

This gives you a unified "world" that the story lives in, as opposed to the fairly empty hollow world most indi film "worlds" toss their stories into.

There is a sticky in this forum on post production that has some good looks at what is involved. And BTW it takes a lot of time, so if your doing it by yourself figure 10 hours or so per screen minute once you know what you are doing. Learning curve is really variable so you might be close to the 10 hr/min or you might be double that.

Basic rule for ambiences, is to think out what is going on in the world where the story takes place and add it in. Basic rule for "hard FX" is if it moves it makes a sound. In general take the last part very literally. If a fly goes through the frame you add a sound for it.

In all cases the rule of three applies. Like music one or two of something sounds like one or two, but three crosses some brain threshold and it starts to sound like a "lot". Three elements in your background tracks will sound much more realistic than one. Basically you are trying to overload the audience with information so they have to do some filtering, just like real life. most of the sounds are going to be much quieter than the dialog because you actually have to do the filtering but humans are used to having to fight through the distractions to get to the important part and if you don't have enough little distractions it doesn't sound "real".
 
Noiz2 said:
In all cases the rule of three applies. Like music one or two of something sounds like one or two, but three crosses some brain threshold and it starts to sound like a "lot". Three elements in your background tracks will sound much more realistic than one. Basically you are trying to overload the audience with information so they have to do some filtering, just like real life. most of the sounds are going to be much quieter than the dialog because you actually have to do the filtering but humans are used to having to fight through the distractions to get to the important part and if you don't have enough little distractions it doesn't sound "real".
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What a wonderful bit of information that is. Thank you!
 
Noiz2 said:
Bruce touched on the topic but you have to realize that a LOT of that "cinematic" sound is postproduction...
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Really fantastic post to show what you're up against.

One man-banding it is possible, but you need practice and you need to develop your ears. Tips that have served me well:

Learn all you can about gain staging, EQ, mic placement;

Test the limiters in your recorder - an unobtrusive limiter is nice - a whooshy breathing one, not;

Use a mic with a low-cut or buy a low-cut XLR adapter;

Design shots so booming/lavs aren't necessary. Put a GOOD mic on a c-stand, close as possible;

If you need a lav, try Oscar soundtech and their XLR battery adapter;

If you need wireless, at least a Sennheiser G3 with your (above) OST mic. The stock mic is OK until you start hiding it, where it can go very dull/dead;

Good entry level mics (AT4053 which I use and really love, Oktava) are still expensive;

Sound blankets and support for them - and understanding where they help and what they can't do;

Good scouting/planning for quiet locations;

Find a musician or a teen or someone with good ears and free time (and decent intelligence) who needs cash and is psyched about being on set. Give him a boom pole, mic, and cans and have him practice being a boom op. There are times when you can't do it without an op, and if there aren't any in your town, you'll have to create one. or it may be easier to teach someone to operate while you boom. An amateur op who's serious about it and wants to learn and do a good job is much, much better than no op at all.

The DSLR explosion's a couple years old. The home recording thing, a couple decades. I guarantee you, unless you're in a town of 50 people, someone your age with your interests is really into recording, and nearby - and would be just as psyched about location recording and cinema post as they are about rock,country, whatever. Find him/her, and strike up a friendship & partnership. You'll find the mindset amongst many of these folks is just like the video crowd - creative, hungry, mildy obsessed.
 
The DSLR explosion's a couple years old. The home recording thing, a couple decades. I guarantee you, unless you're in a town of 50 people, someone your age with your interests is really into recording, and nearby - and would be just as psyched about location recording and cinema post as they are about rock,country, whatever. Find him/her, and strike up a friendship & partnership. You'll find the mindset amongst many of these folks is just like the video crowd - creative, hungry, mildy obsessed.
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Which feeds right into something I haven't gotten on the soapbox about recently.

Film is a TEAM Sport.

You want to do it well and you want to be better than those other guys, right?
Well if they are playing with a full roster, your one man team is toast.

Even most "one man bands" are not really just one person, they are usually one person and some helpers. Don't fight it, embrace it. Film is not a solo enterprise.
 
If your looking to do whats best for your short film in the immediate future, you will hire a professional and focus on other things. If you want to achieve big budget quality sound yourself then you will need to invest in not only equipment but also in education which takes time (more time than you have.) Yes you can learn how to achieve decently high quality audio in the next two months but thinking that you can have "cinematic quality audio" by simply buying equipment and essentially teaching yourself is a little offensive to those that spend their lives perfecting the art (not saying i'm one of those people.) The more you know, the more you will realize how little you know.
 
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