Headphones - Noise cancelling or not.

$170 USD for hd280 is way too high... check hd25-1... those are typically $200 here, and in Europe... so if they're the same price there then that's the better deal. You can get refurb hd280 on amazon or other sites for less then $75usd... and EITHER hd280 or 7506 are $99 brand new.
 
magoo said:
Thanks,
Great feedback. I have ordered some vibe IEM on Ebay and went shopping for the 7506 or Hd280 yesterday. Out of interest - The major outlets in Aust have the 280 at $199au which is about $170us but no 7506 to be seen - some other Sony - cant remember models E110 E210 or something but there is enough evidence that the 7506 is preferred and Ebay has supply. Will let you all know how the shoot went.
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Your profile doesn't say where in Oz you are but a quick google turned up John Barry Sales with stores in Sydney, Melbourne, nad the Gold Coast who carries the Sony MDR-7506 for AU$198 inc GST
 
Steve House said:
Your profile doesn't say where in Oz you are but a quick google turned up John Barry Sales with stores in Sydney, Melbourne, nad the Gold Coast who carries the Sony MDR-7506 for AU$198 inc GST
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Thanks Steve,
found them a few pages into google. I also found them a little cheaper ($137 Au) shipped by US ebay supplier. Will do for me. Thanks
 
Hi All,
Decided on a IEM vibe bass flex (ebay $20 shipped to aust) and Sony 7506 (Ebay $125 shipped to Aust). The 75-6 as with the Sennheiser 280s $199 Aust = $180 US retail. Hmmm maybe I should import and sell em! let you all know later how they went - 2 week shipping.
 
Been using the Sony MDR-7506 headphones for years doing live audio mixing. They are great! 40mm drivers for strong response, very flat sound, nice fit and as long as you take care or them they last forever. Can't go wrong with them, and for 100 bucks they will stand agianst more expensive headsets easily. I personally have at least half a dozen pair of these floating around the studio and in gear bags.
 
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Noise cancellation not the problem

Noise cancellation not the problem

Sorry, I don't agree that noise cancellation hides the true quality of a mic. The cancellation does not affect the mic's response. It affects sounds that leak in through the headset that are not part of the recording and in this way, there are some cases where this can be advantageous. What you are hearing is in fact the sound of the mic minus outside interference.

HOWEVER: This is not the reason why NC headphones are less than ideal.
a) the response is not as good as the better conventional sets
b) part of the negative feedback process introduces response error and coloration
c) they are also a lot more expensive
d) they introduce white noise as part of the cancellation process
e) being active electronically, you sometimes hear digital interference with your gear

I use 2 pairs of AKG 240 pro studio monitor series as my main headsets. But I also carry a set of Bose QC15's for the few instances when outside interference causes listening problems.
 
Sound Chaser said:
Sorry, I don't agree that noise cancellation hides the true quality of a mic. The cancellation does not affect the mic's response. It affects sounds that leak in through the headset that are not part of the recording and in this way, there are some cases where this can be advantageous. What you are hearing is in fact the sound of the mic minus outside interference.
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I think you're confusing noise cancellation and isolation. If you need better isolation, go to something like the HN-7506.
 
Sound Chaser said:
Sorry, I don't agree that noise cancellation hides the true quality of a mic. The cancellation does not affect the mic's response. It affects sounds that leak in through the headset that are not part of the recording and in this way, there are some cases where this can be advantageous. What you are hearing is in fact the sound of the mic minus outside interference.
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You are correct that it doesn't affect the mic's response. It only affects YOUR PERCEPTION of the mic's response (and thus what you are recording). Anything that intentionally distorts what you are hearing is interfering with your ability to hear what you are recording, and that is a fundamental problem.

In particular noise-cancelling headphones will cancel the very kind of noise that you are trying to reduce in your recording. They will give you a "false positive" indication that you recorded something, only to discover that the noise is still there, but you couldn't hear it through your lying headphones. Why on earth would anybody want to do that?

Noise cancelling headphones are an anathema to anyone wanting to do professional recording. Now if you are just going for a pleasant playback of something for entertainment, then go for it. That is what they were made for. They were NOT made for any kind of accurate professional use.
 
Sound Chaser said:
Sorry, I don't agree that noise cancellation hides the true quality of a mic. The cancellation does not affect the mic's response. It affects sounds that leak in through the headset that are not part of the recording and in this way, there are some cases where this can be advantageous. What you are hearing is in fact the sound of the mic minus outside interference.

....
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The outside interference is picked up by the headset's internal noise cancelling mechanism AND ALSO by the microphone. When it's cancelled, BOTH sources of (the same) noise are cancelled. This means that the noise picked up by the mic is making it into your recording BUT you're not hearing it in the headphones because the can's internal electronics is filtering it out of the signal presented to your ears.
 
The bottom line to noise cancelation is this, it you are recording and monitoring with noise cancelling headphones they will cancel everything that they hear (you cam hears) by listening and creating antinoise to eliminate outside sounds. Thats what they were designed to do. In turn what you hear will not be what your cam/audio recorder is recording. They were initially intended to filter out noise from outside the headset so that pilots could better communicate with each other and the tower. From there they were adopted for mainstream listening (lightspeed aviation was one of the pioneers of this, I have a pair they are great, almost eliminates the prop/engine sound entirely).

Noice cancellation should only be used if you are trying to listen to something that is prerecorded, 2 way radio or otherwise for personal (never for professional audio mastering/monitoring) use. If your on a train and want to filter out the screaming kids so you can enjoy your movie, have at it but leave them home for production and use a professional headset.



P.S. - I had a client the other day who flew in from out of state. He was doing a job for a client of his in my area and bought me on to bring the gig together. This so-called videographer/production manager forgot his headphones. On the way in from the airport he stopped at sharper image (of all places) and picked up a pair of; you guessed it, noise cancelling headphones for monitoring and interviews. After using them in the cab while on the way in swore on them. I must say they were the worst sounding noise cancelling headphones I had ever heard, despite the fact you should never use them for this purpose. He was totally convinced, said his audio never sounded so good. He'll find out when he gets back to the studio (probably his basement) I guess. Oh well, I tried to tell him. Some peole just don't think; then arent even willing to listen to reason to boot.

I guess I forgot to thank him, for as long as there are unqualified people like him in the biz, I'll always have a paycheck.
 
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Richard Crowley said:
You are correct that it doesn't affect the mic's response. It only affects YOUR PERCEPTION of the mic's response (and thus what you are recording). Anything that intentionally distorts what you are hearing is interfering with your ability to hear what you are recording, and that is a fundamental problem.

In particular noise-cancelling headphones will cancel the very kind of noise that you are trying to reduce in your recording. They will give you a "false positive" indication that you recorded something, only to discover that the noise is still there, but you couldn't hear it through your lying headphones. Why on earth would anybody want to do that?

Noise cancelling headphones are an anathema to anyone wanting to do professional recording. Now if you are just going for a pleasant playback of something for entertainment, then go for it. That is what they were made for. They were NOT made for any kind of accurate professional use.
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Blammo!... great answer.:thumbsup:
 
OK, I am very satisfied with the comprehensive analysis offered above. Thanks all. I will check the ongoing debate intermittantly. Looks like I created a little storm.
 
Yes N/C changes your perception...but, there are some cases where they are beneficial

Yes N/C changes your perception...but, there are some cases where they are beneficial

N635DC said:
Noice cancellation should only be used if you are trying to listen to something that is prerecorded, 2 way radio or otherwise for personal (never for professional audio mastering/monitoring) use.
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Beg to differ.
Here's a professional application where N/C phones help: http://www.soundchaser.ca/Corktown.html
I recorded this piece on location in a church. The original sound over powered the sound of the mics. N/C phones at least made it possible to hear and balance the mix. Not possible with my regular phones.

I don't use N/C phones to listen to music. I purposely bought them for occasions where regular phones were inadequate. There are just some conditions were it is beneficial and to say that "IT IS NEVER USED IN A PROFESSIONAL APPLICATION" ...well show me a recording that you have done.
 
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Steve House said:
The outside interference is picked up by the headset's internal noise cancelling mechanism AND ALSO by the microphone. When it's cancelled, BOTH sources of (the same) noise are cancelled. This means that the noise picked up by the mic is making it into your recording BUT you're not hearing it in the headphones because the can's internal electronics is filtering it out of the signal presented to your ears.
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IF THIS WERE TRUE:
Then they would not be N/C headphones. They would be NOISE GENERATING headphones because the negative signal added to the cancellation process would be MUCH greater than the sound they are trying to suppress in the first place. Under your scenario a 'second' signal (the microphone) must now be additionally compensated and calculated into the equation. For perfect noise canceling the negative signal must be identical in amplitude to the outside interference. A N/C system's microphones are located externally and does not analyze signals generated from the headphone's speakers.

Noise canceling is far from exact. Attack and release time also plays into the equation, and in this respect the N/C's are very poor at handling transient sounds. The external mics are also prone to wind noise and thus generate noise where none may exist.

In the end I would say they are a wash at best. What they reveal is less than the coloration they introduce into the process. Thus my original post.
 
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Sound Chaser said:
IF THIS WERE TRUE:
Then they would not be N/C headphones. They would be NOISE GENERATING headphones because the negative signal added to the cancellation process would be MUCH greater than the sound they are trying to suppress in the first place. Under your scenario a 'second' signal (the microphone) must now be additionally compensated and calculated into the equation. For perfect noise canceling the negative signal must be identical in amplitude to the outside interference. A N/C system's microphones are located externally and does not analyze signals generated from the headphone's speakers.
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I never said they did analyse the signals sent to the earcups from the recorder. Just the opposite - they are designed to interact with the external noise environment. Anything hitting the N/C system's mics on the outside of the earcups is interpreted as noise, inverted and fed to the inside of the earcups to cancel out the portion that leaks in. But that same sound is also being picked up by the recording microphone a few feet away and is present in the signal coming into the earcups speakers. Whether that refrigerator hum is getting to the inside oif the earcups directly, leaking in around the edges, or through the recording chain, the N/C system will reduce it. But you don't want it reduced when monitoring a field recording - the reason for monitoring is so you can hear it in the signal as it's recorded and know you need to shut off the fridge and call for a retake.

You said it yourself a couple of posts above where you linked to Corktown when you said "NC phones made it possible to hear and balance the mix." That's a whole different ballgame, comparing apples and oranges. "Balancing the mix" on the fly is often done when recording music in studio or when mixing for FOH sound but it is something you would rarely do in a film or video field recording situation, esp. dialog recording, where mixing, balancing, equalizing, sweetening, etc, is normally reserved for the undoable leisure of the post production suite.
 
Sound Chaser said:
The original sound over powered the sound of the mics. N/C phones at least made it possible to hear and balance the mix.
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NO. There is no way one can hear what is being recorded when your headphones are fighting against you by REMOVING some UNKNOWABLE portion of the very signal you are trying to monitor. This is unworkable on a very fundamental level. Noise-cancelling headphones are NEVER appropriate for serious audio recording.

If the ambient levels are that high, then special measures should be used such as using special high-ambient headphones such as the Remote Audio model HN-7506. They are essentially Sony MDR-7506 elements transplanted into a David Clark ear protection headset (like they use on the flight-deck of aircraft carriers.) Another alternative is to use IEMs and then cover your ears with regular hearing protectors.
 
Richard Crowley said:
NO. There is no way one can hear what is being recorded when your headphones are fighting against you by REMOVING some UNKNOWABLE portion of the very signal you are trying to monitor. This is unworkable on a very fundamental level. Noise-cancelling headphones are NEVER appropriate for serious audio recording.
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So are you saying my sample mix is crap? http://www.soundchaser.ca/Corktown.html
This is my first classical recording as I am not a classical engineer, BUT if you can do better, please refer me to your work. I will expect a sample recording of your work demonstrating your superior skills. Yes I am calling you out to back up your comments.

I do agree that IEM are better.
 
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Steve House said:
I never said they did analyse the signals sent to the earcups from the recorder. Just the opposite - they are designed to interact with the external noise environment. Anything hitting the N/C system's mics on the outside of the earcups is interpreted as noise, inverted and fed to the inside of the earcups to cancel out the portion that leaks in. But that same sound is also being picked up by the recording microphone a few feet away and is present in the signal coming into the earcups speakers. Whether that refrigerator hum is getting to the inside oif the earcups directly, leaking in around the edges, or through the recording chain, the N/C system will reduce it.
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The N/C processing will affect similar sounds through sympathetic masking. Thus they are deceiving and not good for recording location dialog. However it will not change the direct mic signal by reducing it in the manner you are implying.

Steve House said:
You said it yourself a couple of posts above where you linked to Corktown when you said "NC phones made it possible to hear and balance the mix." That's a whole different ballgame, comparing apples and oranges. "Balancing the mix" on the fly is often done when recording music in studio or when mixing for FOH sound but it is something you would rarely do in a film or video field recording situation, esp. dialog recording, where mixing, balancing, equalizing, sweetening, etc, is normally reserved for the undoable leisure of the post production suite.
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AGREED

I also said a number of times:
(A) N/C phones are flawed and not good for any kind of critical monitoring.
(B) There are some conditions where they are beneficial

Such straight forward conclusions are obvious to anyone who has any kind of hands on experience with these units. Criticism or defense of a very rudimentary statement should be unnecessary.
 
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You need headphones that help isolate, not noise cancel, exterior noises so that you can concentrate on the sound sources that is being picked up by your microphone(s).

Noise canceling headphones a NO NO!
 
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