Headphones - Noise cancelling or not.

magoo

magoo

Member
Hi,
I willl be shooting events indoors and out - i.e. a wedding in 3 weeks time - and would like to know what kind/model of headset - at the camcorder - would work best (good yet economical) choice. I dont have one yet.

Are any of these characteristics important/imperative/useless?
- noise reduction?
- swivel cups.
- On ear or over ear?
- other?

Does the noise reduction type modify the audio so I don't actually hear what is recording on the audio track?

Thanks:beer:
 
magoo said:
Hi,
I willl be shooting events indoors and out - i.e. a wedding in 3 weeks time - and would like to know what kind/model of headset - at the camcorder - would work best (good yet economical) choice. I dont have one yet.

Are any of these characteristics important/imperative/useless?
- noise reduction?
- swivel cups.
- On ear or over ear?
- other?

Does the noise reduction type modify the audio so I don't actually hear what is recording on the audio track?

Thanks:beer:
Click to expand...

Noise reduction (active) is a very big no-no as it works by phase inverting sound hitting the outside of the earcups, what it believes to be interfering"noise," and injecting it into the signal. Fine for "noise" leaking in under the earcups but it also interacts with the undesired noise that's coming in through the mic. An airplane going over or a refrigerator running is picked up be your boom mic and also the noise-pickup in the phones and gets cancelled. But one big reason to monitor on cans is to hear when such noises are creeping in to ruin the shot, so you really DO want to hear that airplane. Artificially eliminating noise picked up by your mic in what you hear cancels out a big reason for monitoring in the first place.

Noise isolation OTOH is a good thing. That's why you want phones that are closed back, over-the-ear types so there's no leakage from outside through the earcups and what you're hearing is what is going on through your mic and recording chain. Beyond that, look for comfort, durability, and a realatively unbiased, flat and predicatable response curve. You don't want phones designed for entertainment that try to make things sound better than they are - you want phones that will let you know if your recording is sounding like cr*p so you can reshoot and fix it.
 
The overwhelming consensus is that "noise cancelling" headphones are NOT recommended because they will unilaterally change what you hear depending on what they think is "noise". That may be fine when you are listening to pre-recorded content, but NEVER when you are recording. You need to hear what you are actually recording, "warts and all". Using noise-cancelling headphones would be like using a viewfinder that automatically makes the picture look sharper if it is out of focus.

The things you want most for monitoring (at least IMHO) are:
  • ISOLATION the ability to hear the signal and exclude the airborne sounds (signal and noise)
  • ACCURACY the ability to hear the full range signal (AND whatever noise you are recording)
  • COMFORT the ability to wear the headphones for extended periods

The "industry standard" headphones for location recording are the Sony MDR-7506 (or their consumer version "identical cousin" MDR-V6) In the spirit of full disclosure those Sony models are not as "flat" (accurate) as some, but they are favored because they make it easier to hear unwanted sounds while recording. The Sennheiser HD280 are also frequently mentioned as a smoother alternative.

One reason you want comfortable headphones is to enable you to wear them consistently while recording. Murphy's Law says that as soon as you take off the headphones, something will go wrong and you won't know about it until too late. My rule is: Recording sound without monitoring it is exactly like framing and focusing without using the viewfinder.
 
I was going to suggest those same headphones that Richard just mentioned. I have been using the Sony MDR-7506 for a couple of years now. I went to the store just yesterday to upgrade so I listened to a bunch of other pro grade headphones, Shure, Panasonic, Sony, Sennheiser. I listed to the MDR-7506 headphones up against many more expensive models...and guess what? I am sticking with the 7506s.

I think noise cancelling is no good for monitoring audio either.
 
In the UK (and Europe) the "industry standard" is the Sennheiser HD 25-1 (now Mk.II).

My own pair are now 20 years old and still going strong - all I have done is to replace the earpads about 4 or 5 times over the years as they wore out.
 
Sony MDR-7506 gotta love them. What is your budget? I got mines brand new for $80 bucks that's a great deal.

Nicole
 
Coming from a guy who has 4 pairs of 7506, a pair of HD280 pro... and several higher end cans (that make those sound like sh*t)...

I suggest that if you want the cheapest, highest isolation headphones for THIS environment... that you get something like V-Moda Bass Freq off ebay for less then $10 shipped. Then at the wedding... just keep one bud in your ear, unless you're recording 2 channels... and then you want either 7506 or HD280 pro.

If all you need is confidence monitoring... an IEM in a one-man band, run 'n gun atmosphere is fine (referring to the above advice)...

If you're doing critical monitoring where you're specifically responsible for sound, you want a good set of cans with return monitoring and the ability to quickly evaluate the difference in live sound and what's being recorded.
 
Although the MDR-V6's are "comparable", spend the few extra bucks for a pair of 7506's. The 7506's are built to stand up to the punishment of field recording. We use 7506's in the foley studio, and despite the unwholesome abuse they suffer, repairs are few and far between. Moreover, they're quite easy to repair.

Of course, I'm also a big fan of Remote Audio's HN-7506 headphones, which take Sony's drivers and add big ol' isolation baffles (acoustic isolation... the good kind).
 
SMuir said:
Although the MDR-V6's are "comparable", spend the few extra bucks for a pair of 7506's. The 7506's are built to stand up to the punishment of field recording. We use 7506's in the foley studio, and despite the unwholesome abuse they suffer, repairs are few and far between. Moreover, they're quite easy to repair.

Of course, I'm also a big fan of Remote Audio's HN-7506 headphones, which take Sony's drivers and add big ol' isolation baffles (acoustic isolation... the good kind).
Click to expand...

Are the materials actually sturdier in the 7506? I was kind of curious about that. I'd heard mixed things, and I ended up going with the 7506 (price difference isn't huge, so I figured better safe than sorry). I was very impressed with the dead silence they produce (no hiss, background sound, distortion, etc) and the generally very accurate sound reproduction (not totally uncolored, but better than anything else I currently own). Had a friend who just bought the V6, and I could barely tell the difference externally.

Granted, I didn't look super closely, but they felt pretty similar.

But yeah, guess I'm another vote on the 7506.
 
To all,

I will check out the models you all suggest - thank you all for the excellent tips and comment on your personal choices and experience. Great responce. just the sort of help I need.

(budget is $100 - 200 au).
I can always lift one cup off to sit behind my ear if I need to hear the 'real' sound.
I dont like the ear buds much - too comfortable. Although good to have in the bag as a backup. I am afraid I will try to walk away from the camera with them still on - bad result all round.
The MDR-7506 and the HD-280 look like the winners.

In desperation I was going to use my 1st ever stereo White Pioneer SE-20A headset found in a cupboard - 5mm jack and 3mm converter. They look like 2 halves of an ostrich egg.

Magoo
 
Tracey Lee said:
.... so I listened to a bunch of other pro grade headphones, Shure, Panasonic, Sony, Sennheiser. I listed to the MDR-7506 headphones up against many more expensive models...and guess what? I am sticking with the 7506s.

Thanks tracey Lee - looks like you have done some legwork for me already.
Magoo
Click to expand...
 
Thanks Richard Crowley and Steve House - Very clear responce.

PS
Not sure if ettiquet is to respond to each reply - newish here - so i wont ..... cause it takes too long ... and I wait for correction?
 
The sennheiser HD25-2 II are good to do things in situations like this.

I had the Beyerdinamic pro 770 witch is also very nice... But..It's better to use it in situations of recording short or features, or doing sound editing stuff (NOT mixing)

Ow and... tell people if you have your headphones on ...you WON'T hear them :-p
 
In run 'n gun situations professional CAMERAMEN (notice I didn't say SOUNDGUYS) use an IEM... there are many professional models of IEM which go in ONE ear, because, again... they are cameramen.

If you're shooting a wedding... trust me on this... get yourself a set of 7506 or whatever... but spend $10 today and get some of those V-Moda "IEM" (bass freq) off ebay, pop those in your camera bag, ready to go... be sure to CLEARLY MARK which is right or left (so that when you pop one in you'll know which channel (or both) you are monitoring... and just have this ready to go.

You'll get into the wedding situation and have times where you'll need high situational awareness, yet you'll be trying to watch the shot at the same time... pretty soon you'll find the acoustic isolation from the environment a little handicapping and you'll push one cup of the 7506 or HD280 off an ear so you can judge how loud you're whispering when you say "excuse me" or push past somebody who whispers something to you... it's at this point that you may have the full-sized cans drop off your head forward or back... and go "CLUNK" on the floor...

My basic rule is if you're mostly on sticks... use the big cans... if you gotta' move a lot in an unpredictable way... have an IEM available.

Hey all I'm saying is I have had 4 pairs of 7506 and HD280 pro... and my current professional location can is HD25-1... I know what good location cans sound like and what you will want for professional sound monitoring... but when you're the CAMERAMAN also... in a situation where you can't do anything about the audio to correct it except making sure it's THERE on tape... you're going to want something small and convenient that doesn't impair your ability to move around with situational awareness.

I'm not saying to get some of these INSTEAD of professional cans... I'm saying to get some in addition to professional cans. Have both available. Do NOT use V-Moda earbuds when you're shooting your dramatic indi-film... DO use them (one in) when you're shooting unscripted run 'n gun as a one-man band. Half of your wedding will be "drama" and the other half will be run 'n gun.

I'll bet that if you have some form of "IEM" available for situations like this, that you'll come back to thank me for this advice one day.
 
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MattinSTL: "I'm saying to get some in addition to professional cans."

Will do and I agree weddings will be 50/50 tripod and add hoc. It would be good to have the choice and at $10 - why not! Thanks
 
You'll see 7506 A LOT on professional sets. That's probably the most common can here in the USA. The guys responsible for sound in Europe will probably be using the same 7506 OR Sennheiser HD25-1 (twice the $)

(I was hesitant to speak so much on cheap "IEM" but don't forget that it was in the context of shooting a wedding... which is a situation where you can't say "hey everybody we gotta' do that last bit over again... I didn't have audio"... My point was that cameramen (not soundmen) use a single ear monitor that is super small, like an IEM you'd use for an ipod (NOT the ipod earbuds, one that pushes INTO the ear)...

Here's what I often see:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/184649-REG/Telex_800318001_CES_2_Earset_Kit_with.html

This is what the cameraman pops in his ear (and at times leaves it hang because he'll find even this too distracting)...


So... bottom line is... in any situation that's essentially one-man band, run 'n gun, where you can't do squat to adjust audio on the subject and all you need monitoring for is to be sure YOU aren't screwing up... an IEM works great... anytime you're on NOT on the move, or are in a controlled situation (standing at a tripod during a ceremony, or shooting a planned film scene)... for real sound... for critical sound... you want 7506 or HD280pro in the sub $100 price-range... and then at double that $ you want 7509 or HD25-1...
 
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SMuir said:
Although the MDR-V6's are "comparable", spend the few extra bucks for a pair of 7506's. The 7506's are built to stand up to the punishment of field recording. We use 7506's in the foley studio, and despite the unwholesome abuse they suffer, repairs are few and far between. Moreover, they're quite easy to repair.

Of course, I'm also a big fan of Remote Audio's HN-7506 headphones, which take Sony's drivers and add big ol' isolation baffles (acoustic isolation... the good kind).
Click to expand...

I have six pair, some of them 7506, and some of them V6. The only visible difference between them is the name on the sticker, and the 7506 plug is gold plated. Otherwise, they are indistinguishable. The evidence is that they come off the same assembly line and the 7506 "quality" is measured in. I haven't had anybody yet distinguish between them aurally.

The Remote Audio HN-7506 is a great combination of the 7506 transducers and a David Clark-style ear protectors similar to the kind they use on the flight deck of aircraft carriers.
 
Thanks,
Great feedback. I have ordered some vibe IEM on Ebay and went shopping for the 7506 or Hd280 yesterday. Out of interest - The major outlets in Aust have the 280 at $199au which is about $170us but no 7506 to be seen - some other Sony - cant remember models E110 E210 or something but there is enough evidence that the 7506 is preferred and Ebay has supply. Will let you all know how the shoot went.
 
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