HDV vs. DVCProHD

I don't know what you mean by "it doesn't make sense."

I'm just reporting what our clients observed.

And I didn't say the HDV footage made a bad DVD. What I did say is that our clients preferred DVCProHD based DVDs.

We struggled with our decision to move from HDV to DVCProHD.

It ran a bunch of money more because the HVX200 was selling at a premium.

But we're glad we made that decision.
 
David S. said:
I don't know what you mean by "it doesn't make sense."
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Sorry, what I mean is that based on my experience, you should not have gotten poor results encoding HDV. The FX1 was my previous camera and the DVD stuff from it looks very good to my eyes.

Obviously, starting with a better source gets you better looking DVD, but I've never found DVCPROHD to be night and day difference in term of image quality. Heavy post production is another matter, but for basic editing you're really not utilizing all that extra data, and they won't translate to DVD.
 
Huy Vu said:
Ok, how about this? I show you two DVDs, one compressed from A1 HDV footage and and the other from HVX DVCPROHD footage and you tell me which is which. It's not an exaggeration. Provided that you shot and encode it correctly, nobody will be able to tell what the originating format is once it goes into DVD.
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Well, on the off chance were live in the same city and were conduct this test, we'd have the issue that I'd probably be able to pick out the A1 from the colors, gamma curve, and a few other issues. The only way for a proper test to work is if we had a camera that was shooting in both HDV and DVCProHD.

You go to buy a car and the salesman "dumb down" the specs for you and get you to purchase a more expensive vehicle than you need. Wouldn't you be pissed off?
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If I didn't know better and think you were comparing me to a used care salesman and I might be a tad offended. If we're going to run with your metaphor though, the car salesman is just trying to sell you something. He's not using the car to provide a service for you. If my sound guy is trying to get me to rent a better mic; I don't want or need him to get super technical about the capabilities because it all goes over my head (I suck at sound). If he's going to make the case for a mic that works better for what he's going for, makes his job easier, makes him happier, and thus gets him to do a better job on my movie then I'm fine if he needs to dumb things down.


If there's a problem down the line, then that's gonna be on their head.
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Are you kidding? It's always on your head (at least in my experience) because you're the "expert." Hell, I get clients who tell me to go ahead and shoot even though it's cloudy and ask if I can fix that in the computer.

I know that if I'm asking somebody for advice then I'll want the most honest answer I can get; I don't like people presuming that I'm too dumb or too ignorant to understand something and make the decisions for me.[/quote[

Perhaps you've worked with far more well-informed clients then I have. I've gone to clients, tried to explain the shots I'm going for, and had them say, "don't worry. We trust you. Just shoot it how you think best." And then later, they look at the edit and ask, "why didn't you get this shot" or "can we change these 50 things?" The vast majority of the clients I've worked with have a very vague idea of what they want at the start and only get difficult after everything is shot and they see the first edit. I've been told by many that I'm "too nice" in my business dealings but I'm learning and a big part of what I'm learning is to cover my own butt and foresee problems before they happen. So if that means "dumbing down" something to avoid an issue later that is going to be on my head, you can be damn sure that's what I'm going to do.

BTW, all that talks about "interframe compression artifacts" are a thing of the past. The HDV codec as implemented on the A1 is rock solid. I've shot action scenes with plenty of whip and and have encountered zero problem.
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I've only shot once with the A1 and I like the little sucker. I like it far more than all the other HDV cameras and I can't speak to it's quality when transfered to DVD because I haven't put it through the paces. I'm speaking of my general experience with HDV.

The FX1 was my previous camera and the DVD stuff from it looks very good to my eyes.
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And this is why I have trouble taking your word for it. If the FX1 looked good to your eyes then I'm at a loss. I have shot numerous times with that sucker and I can certainly attest to numerous compression artifacts, color issues, and other problems. If that's acceptable to you then so be it but it's so far below acceptable to me and most of the people I work with that it's not even funny.
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when hdv and dvcprohd hit the streets about 2 years ago i did tests with the z1, hd100, xl1h and the hvx.

on an overall basis of raw footage to SD dvd (using the fcp suite) . the hvx and dvcprohd format beat them all.
 
DavidBeier said:
Well, on the off chance were live in the same city and were conduct this test, we'd have the issue that I'd probably be able to pick out the A1 from the colors, gamma curve, and a few other issues. The only way for a proper test to work is if we had a camera that was shooting in both HDV and DVCProHD.
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Well, I can CC the footage or do other kinds of post processing, which is what most people do anyway and then how will you tell the difference? We're not comparing the "raw" output of the camera here, but what happens when you wrap up post production and it goes to DVD or the web. Heck, I can probably mix A1 and HVX footage and throw you for a loop. In a complicated project involving many generations of rendering, the DVCPROHD will probably come out ahead, but in your typical project where it's simple Shoot--Edit--Burn to DVD I doubt you'll find a significant difference. My point all along is that a lot of people never utilize the full potential of the codec because not everyone is doing crazy CG or greenscreen.


DavidBeier said:
If he's going to make the case for a mic that works better for what he's going for, makes his job easier, makes him happier, and thus gets him to do a better job on my movie then I'm fine if he needs to dumb things down.
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Fair enough, if I don't know something I'd defer to an expert's judgment anyway. But I wouldn't be happy for example to have him tell me that a microphone has better "reach" (which is the layman's term) and then found out later that there's no such thing as "reach" when it comes to microphone. Makes him looks like an patronizing idiot later on doesn't it?


DavidBeier said:
Perhaps you've worked with far more well-informed clients then I have.
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Maybe I'm just lucky:engel017:


DavidBeier said:
And this is why I have trouble taking your word for it. If the FX1 looked good to your eyes then I'm at a loss. I have shot numerous times with that sucker and I can certainly attest to numerous compression artifacts, color issues, and other problems. If that's acceptable to you then so be it but it's so far below acceptable to me and most of the people I work with that it's not even funny.
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We'll have to agree to disagree here.
 
The HVX has more saturated, film-like colors. This results in better looking DVDs, because people find saturated videos attractive, but this has nothing to do with the DVCProHD codec! You can simulate the saturation of the HVX on any HDV cam through simple color curves adjustment in your NLE.
 
Okay, first of all, the first post was asking two different questions: one about the format, and the other about a specific camera that uses the format. Some people in this thread seem to be assuming that DVCPRO-HD = HVX, and HVX = DVCPRO-HD. That's not the right way to view it.

As a FORMAT, DVCPRO-HD is unquestionably a better format than HDV. Which is why every major network that I can think of accepts DVCPRO-HD unrestricted as an acquisition, editing, and delivery format. No network like the BBC or Discovery will accept unrestricted HDV for any of those purposes, regardless of manufacturer.

Heck, lots of people like to point out Canon as having the "best" implementation of HDV. Which begs the question of why, when Canon set out to make the best-looking demo footage they possibly could for the XLH1, why did they record through HD-SDI out to a DVCPRO-HD deck rather than just use the built-in HDV deck? Because the DVCPRO-HD format is better. And it's much better for working with in post. Those are just obvious advantages. Sony will tell you that HDCAM is better than HDV; heck, Sony says that HDCAM is better than XDCAM-HD, and XDCAM-HD is better than HDV. HDCAM and DVCPRO-HD are direct competitors, which should imply that not only is HDV not the equal to DVCPRO-HD, but it's at least two classes lower.

Now, you can't just arbitrarily extend that argument to HVX vs. XHA1. There is so much more that goes into the final image than the recording format! While DVCPRO-HD is accepted for unrestricted image acquisition at Discovery, that doesn't mean you can use an HVX for unrestricted acquisition. Discovery limits all 1/3" cameras to no more than 15% content creation, regardless of what format they use. Heck, the BBC doesn't even consider XDCAM-HD or XDCAM-EX as high-def footage, even though those are being shot in 1/2" chips.

So evaluate the cameras on all the factors that are relevant to you: features, workflow, price, and image.
 
Regarding camera price, you can't do much with an HVX200 with one 16GB card so the cost of additional memory becomes a factor in the overall price. Many HVX owners buy at least Firestore drive for long-form recording, which at $2k brings the effctive cost of the camera to over $7k - enough to buy two XH-A1s. One might also consider whether a school would want to invest in a stack of expensive p2 cards (or Firestore) which can get lost or broken, as opposed to buying miniDV tapes at $3-5 each.

DVCProHD is a fine codec, but the cost of memory for the HVX200 is a deal-breaker for many. For a school it might be better to suggest the new HMC150, if they can wait until that's shipping. Or consider the Sony EX1, but then you're back to the cost of memory as an issue. Or let them go with HDV and learn to get the most out of it.
 
well, I wasn't expecting this much of a firestorm over this issue! Funny thing is, i actually made a typo in my original post... I meant to say XL-H1, not XH-A1. The XH-A1 wasn't even a contender for me! And the XL-H1 is actually significantly more expensive than the HVX. (I assume you're paying for the HD-SDI and the bayonet mount).

It's been interesting reading through your posts and I thank you for your contributions.

Kevin, they never really gave me a budget to work with, but my first iteration ran close to $20k for everything and they didn't blink an eye. Since then I've refined it and changed cameras several times, changed editing platforms several times (originally I was requesting the XL-H1S with AVID's Media Composer Mojo DX). Long and short of it is, I've been able to put together a complete HD package (sans lighting) for $14,046.57. I'm pretty pleased with that and I know my bosses are as well. I've got the HVX200A with an extra long-life battery and an additional 16GB card (I'll want more, but I'm going to wait till Fujifilm gets theirs out in hopes prices drop some), a very fast quad-core PC running the Adobe Masterworks Collection (I'll be doing more than just video work--flash and web development is also part of my job description) and 3TB of RAID5 dedicated storage, dual 24" HD-LCD monitors, Blackmagic's Decklink HD Extreme, a Libec 38S tripod, AT lav mic and XLR adapter w/ dual channel camera mount receiver, K6 shotgun and boom kit, active studio reference monitors for sound, Pelican field case big enough to hold the camera and all the mics... so yeah, I'm pretty happy to have put together something that cheaply. I know I still need lighting, but for now I'm going to make do with 3000 watts of heavy-duty construction lighting I own from my previous job. I can get filters and diffusors from our theater department here and I'm going to manufacture some barn doors to custom fit the light heads. Already built my own steadycam for $20 and I'm working on plans for a jib and dolly w/ track, both of which I can build for under $100 each.
 
Kevin Shaw said:
Regarding camera price, you can't do much with an HVX200 with one 16GB card .
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I shoot every day and a 16GB card does the job great. You really can't say this without knowing what your going to shoot. Yes if you are shooting a wedding or something on those lines you will need more space.... But not everyone who takes their hvx out of their bag has it in REC mode for over and hour.

I have yet to run out of space while shooting, I make sure to dump all clips as soon as im done shooting, works great for me and im sure many others.
 
Our first HVX had 2 - 4 gig cards. That was plenty. We still use the 4gigs.

I would have only Dreamed of having 1 16g card a few years ago.

You can get more then enough done on 1 16 gig card.
 
Kevin Shaw said:
Regarding camera price, you can't do much with an HVX200 with one 16GB card so the cost of additional memory becomes a factor in the overall price.
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I've had my HVX200 for over two years and have shot a huge variety of projects with just two 4 gig cards.
 
Hey Barry, please go ahead and lock this thread if you'd like... I think the answers have stopped becoming helpful to me and it's becoming kinda pointless... :-)
 
David S. said:
We shot 22 minutes of 24pNative footage.

You do the math
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So every 22 minutes you'll have to stop shooting for several minutes to download the clips. Hmm, I can see how that won't be a serious problem on a movie set, but for most other kinds of pro work it would be unacceptable (event coverage, primarily). I wouldn't go that route unless I had no choice (e.g. network requirements)
 
but then there is always the fact that most have a laptop to dump to. Just firewire to the laptop and record for hours if you need to. I've even had my laptop in a bag doing hand held. man it got hot but kept on capturing. plus you get a big monitor screen to boot. I went for 3 months doing docs with this setup before I got my P2 cards.
 
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