I saw a couple of threads debating the whether to wait for Panasonic to come out with a DVCPRO HD model. Panasonic already has a pretty cheap one that goes to $7000 - $8000. No one will dispute that DVCPRO is much better, but its bandwidth is higher, the systems required are speced up too. I get the sense that the feeling is the prosum or indi video producers here will determine the winner. But, it just show a lack of understand of marketing. The Sony f1 is being marketed at the well-heeled techie guy, its a rolex. HDV will win because Canon, sony, JVC, etc will start making one chip HDV that will clean panasonics clock. The reason is a marketing choice, its a format that will wow the average consumer and does not affects profits in there high end stuff. Panasonic is foolish if they do come out with a lowend model because they will be cannibalizing their lowend ENR biz
HDV the future?
- Thread starter ettubaby
- Start date
Anhar_Miah
Veteran
Re: HDV the future?
ball glazing is a wonderful thing but to be honest i dont think anybody hear knows whats gonna happen next in the video industry BUT one thing is for sure... big changes are happing write now, i mean HD is actually here and now their aint no turning back..
as the song goes "the ony way is up!"
ball glazing is a wonderful thing but to be honest i dont think anybody hear knows whats gonna happen next in the video industry BUT one thing is for sure... big changes are happing write now, i mean HD is actually here and now their aint no turning back..
as the song goes "the ony way is up!"
Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: HDV the future?
I don't think Panasonic has anything against HDV per se, but they don't believe it's a professional format. I think (and this is only a guess) that they will produce DVCPRO-HD product that will be cross-compatible across their entire product line, which will not cannibalize anything but instead make their lineup more attractive to stations/networks. Right now stations and networks are shooting on BetaSP, DVCAM, DV, DigiBeta, DVCPRO-50, and a few are using MPEG-IMX and the few unfortunates out there who bought into BetaSX. Panasonic intends to offer a bottom-to-top solution, cameras in all form factors and price ranges, that all record on the same interchangeable format, DVCPRO-HD. Far from "cannibalizing" their higher-end sales, the introduction of a $3,000 to $5,000 model is a very smart move on their part, because they're facing the reality: stations are already employing DVX's and PD150's. It's already happened, and they know it. So now they'll design a camera that fits in the product line and uses the same format... it's brilliant, actually.
As for HDV and where it's headed: it could be big. It's not a bad format. It's not what I would want to shoot on, I'd much rather use a better and more robust format, but if there's to be adoption of high-def by consumers, HDV will likely be "it". But I don't think HDV will earn the trust of the networks and bigger production companies; I think they'd much rather use something like DVCPRO-HD.
? If HDV becomes big business, Panasonic can always join on. Panasonic is currently the undisputed king of low-end 3-CCD models, and they can always join in and make consumer HDV models all day long. They could make a 3-CCD GS400-HDV which would probably be a tough clock to clean.
I don't think Panasonic has anything against HDV per se, but they don't believe it's a professional format. I think (and this is only a guess) that they will produce DVCPRO-HD product that will be cross-compatible across their entire product line, which will not cannibalize anything but instead make their lineup more attractive to stations/networks. Right now stations and networks are shooting on BetaSP, DVCAM, DV, DigiBeta, DVCPRO-50, and a few are using MPEG-IMX and the few unfortunates out there who bought into BetaSX. Panasonic intends to offer a bottom-to-top solution, cameras in all form factors and price ranges, that all record on the same interchangeable format, DVCPRO-HD. Far from "cannibalizing" their higher-end sales, the introduction of a $3,000 to $5,000 model is a very smart move on their part, because they're facing the reality: stations are already employing DVX's and PD150's. It's already happened, and they know it. So now they'll design a camera that fits in the product line and uses the same format... it's brilliant, actually.
As for HDV and where it's headed: it could be big. It's not a bad format. It's not what I would want to shoot on, I'd much rather use a better and more robust format, but if there's to be adoption of high-def by consumers, HDV will likely be "it". But I don't think HDV will earn the trust of the networks and bigger production companies; I think they'd much rather use something like DVCPRO-HD.
Re: HDV the future?
Barry, I agree they are selling a lot of dvx100a, I bought one, using it on a doc, never used the 24p, buy love the fpower mic, and picture.
I will tell you this, it is not stations that are making the buying decisions buy who has the credit card, reporters will go with the DV cameras, because they are light and easy to use, camera guy hate them, they make them look like dorks, shoulder mounted, yeah.
>It's already happened, and they know it. So now they'll design a >camera that fits in the product line and uses the same format... it's >brilliant, actually.
I think panasonic will come out with something, but, man, they already have a really cheap great camera that does a lot. I just think DVCPROHD is not a consumer standard, HDV is. All the debates about he F1 24 and 30 filmlike stuff is funny, its is toys, it works, like the cheese effects in older cameras.
>But I don't think HDV will earn the trust of the networks and bigger >production companies; I think they'd much rather use something like >DVCPRO-HD.
That is true, but they also have the cash to spend and deep pockets, there is no reason to give them a break. The pro guy will go for the more robust looking stuff.
The problem with panasonic stance is that no one else is standing with them. They will just piss off loyal users that have thous of dollars of buying choices
Barry, I agree they are selling a lot of dvx100a, I bought one, using it on a doc, never used the 24p, buy love the fpower mic, and picture.
I will tell you this, it is not stations that are making the buying decisions buy who has the credit card, reporters will go with the DV cameras, because they are light and easy to use, camera guy hate them, they make them look like dorks, shoulder mounted, yeah.
>It's already happened, and they know it. So now they'll design a >camera that fits in the product line and uses the same format... it's >brilliant, actually.
I think panasonic will come out with something, but, man, they already have a really cheap great camera that does a lot. I just think DVCPROHD is not a consumer standard, HDV is. All the debates about he F1 24 and 30 filmlike stuff is funny, its is toys, it works, like the cheese effects in older cameras.
>But I don't think HDV will earn the trust of the networks and bigger >production companies; I think they'd much rather use something like >DVCPRO-HD.
That is true, but they also have the cash to spend and deep pockets, there is no reason to give them a break. The pro guy will go for the more robust looking stuff.
The problem with panasonic stance is that no one else is standing with them. They will just piss off loyal users that have thous of dollars of buying choices
Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: HDV the future?
Most of the camera guys I've talked to do hate the handheld lightweight cameras, that is true. They like the heft and the feel (and the look) of the shoulder-mount.
But you do realize I'm talking about a DVCPRO-HD camera priced around $3,000, right? This isn't any $20,000+ camera... Panasonic's showed their prototype, with a DVCPRO-HD label on it, and they talked about a price in the range of $3,000 (which I wouldn't mind, but I'd rather pay $5,000 and get the camera I WANT rather than $3,000 and have it lacking crucial features...)
As far as consumer gear, yes that's a different market. And yes, if HDV takes off, I'm certain Panasonic would join the coalition. But seriously, how soon will HDV cameras make an impact on other products' sales? Already the FX1's come down in price $500 at B&H, so they must not be selling every one they can make yet... the XL2 stayed at full retail for ... what was it, like three or four months? Maybe the pent-up demand among early adopters has already been satisfied, or maybe they're all skipping the FX1 and waiting for the Z1.
HDV may indeed be the format of the future. Or it may flop, the same way SACD, DVD-Audio, Micro-MV, BetaSX, Betacam, DCC, CD-I, Digital8, LaserDisc, S-VHS, and many other formats have flopped. It's really, really, really early in the game right now. Heck, the entire continent of Europe is still deciding their broadcast standard, and if they choose 720p over 1080i (and all indications are that they will), that could "orphan" the FX1/E then and there.
This is a game that needs to be played out. It's a little early to determine a "winner"... or whether the consumer will even be aware that there's a game even going on.
Most of the camera guys I've talked to do hate the handheld lightweight cameras, that is true. They like the heft and the feel (and the look) of the shoulder-mount.
But you do realize I'm talking about a DVCPRO-HD camera priced around $3,000, right? This isn't any $20,000+ camera... Panasonic's showed their prototype, with a DVCPRO-HD label on it, and they talked about a price in the range of $3,000 (which I wouldn't mind, but I'd rather pay $5,000 and get the camera I WANT rather than $3,000 and have it lacking crucial features...)
The thing about DVCPRO-HD is that it's not a new format. It's already out there. It's been out there for over three years. Editors like FCP-HD and Avid Express already support it. So is it Panasonic who's out there all alone, or is it Sony? HDV's the new format here, that requires new gear... Panasonic's already delivered DVCPRO-HD, they'd just be rounding out their product line.
As far as consumer gear, yes that's a different market. And yes, if HDV takes off, I'm certain Panasonic would join the coalition. But seriously, how soon will HDV cameras make an impact on other products' sales? Already the FX1's come down in price $500 at B&H, so they must not be selling every one they can make yet... the XL2 stayed at full retail for ... what was it, like three or four months? Maybe the pent-up demand among early adopters has already been satisfied, or maybe they're all skipping the FX1 and waiting for the Z1.
HDV may indeed be the format of the future. Or it may flop, the same way SACD, DVD-Audio, Micro-MV, BetaSX, Betacam, DCC, CD-I, Digital8, LaserDisc, S-VHS, and many other formats have flopped. It's really, really, really early in the game right now. Heck, the entire continent of Europe is still deciding their broadcast standard, and if they choose 720p over 1080i (and all indications are that they will), that could "orphan" the FX1/E then and there.
This is a game that needs to be played out. It's a little early to determine a "winner"... or whether the consumer will even be aware that there's a game even going on.
Re: HDV the future?
I think the bottom line is that a consumer would like to have 'the best format which is most affordable'. The hints about DVCPro-HD being superior to HD are already there...the only thing that remains to be seen is what Panasonic would do to make it more affordable...imho.
I think the bottom line is that a consumer would like to have 'the best format which is most affordable'. The hints about DVCPro-HD being superior to HD are already there...the only thing that remains to be seen is what Panasonic would do to make it more affordable...imho.
Re: HDV the future?
>As far as consumer gear, yes that's a different market. And yes, if >HDV takes off, I'm certain Panasonic would join the coalition. But >seriously, how soon will HDV cameras make an impact on other >products' sales? Already the FX1's come down in price $500 at B&H, so >they must not be selling every one they can make yet... the XL2 stayed >at full retail for ... what was it, like three or four months? Maybe the >pent-up demand among early adopters has already been satisfied, or >maybe they're all skipping the FX1 and waiting for the Z1.
Berry they are not freaking out, because they are under no illusions that any money will be made, maybe after a couple of years they will break even, they are probably just making a few thousand units. Sony hasn't lowered its price, it just doesn't enforce a base like Apple and other manufactures. BH bought a large lot and negotiated a great price.
I don't think Panasonic is making great profits on dvx100, margins are low on equipment like that. See how much canon is selling the xl2 and how sony priced the Z1, and Panasonic is going to price a DVCPROHD with 24p, camera for 3 grand! say goodbye to their $26,000 camera, say goodbye to their $20,000.
>As far as consumer gear, yes that's a different market. And yes, if >HDV takes off, I'm certain Panasonic would join the coalition. But >seriously, how soon will HDV cameras make an impact on other >products' sales? Already the FX1's come down in price $500 at B&H, so >they must not be selling every one they can make yet... the XL2 stayed >at full retail for ... what was it, like three or four months? Maybe the >pent-up demand among early adopters has already been satisfied, or >maybe they're all skipping the FX1 and waiting for the Z1.
Berry they are not freaking out, because they are under no illusions that any money will be made, maybe after a couple of years they will break even, they are probably just making a few thousand units. Sony hasn't lowered its price, it just doesn't enforce a base like Apple and other manufactures. BH bought a large lot and negotiated a great price.
I don't think Panasonic is making great profits on dvx100, margins are low on equipment like that. See how much canon is selling the xl2 and how sony priced the Z1, and Panasonic is going to price a DVCPROHD with 24p, camera for 3 grand! say goodbye to their $26,000 camera, say goodbye to their $20,000.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: HDV the future?
That logic makes no sense to me. A 2/3" shoulder-mount camera with interchangeable lenses offers a lot more than any $3,000 camera will.
They'll sell a bazillion of the cheap cameras, and they'll probably sell just as many of the expensive cameras as they always did.
I think people don't really understand just how few of these big cameras get sold. I mean, how many CineAlta's are there in the market? A couple hundred? A thousand at most? And how many DVX's are there? A hundred thousand? How many PD150's... 200,000?
There just aren't that many big cameras sold. That's why they're expensive -- there has to be a lot of profit margin to pay for the R&D. And no, there's likely very little profit margin on the small cameras, which means they have to sell in bulk. Which means that if Panasonic sells 1,000 VariCams over its product life, and 100,000 mini-cams, they'll probably make about the same amount of net profit from both.
Look at it this way: how many Lamborghini Diablo's get sold every year? 50? And how many Ford Mustangs... 500,000? I really don't think the new Mustang, or the Mitsubishi Lancer EVO, have any (and I do mean *any*) effect on Ferrari or Lamborghini sales. And I don't expect that someone who's in the market for a CineAlta will say "well, now hold on a minute, let's buy an FX1 instead". Different market, different capabilities, different price points, different needs.
That logic makes no sense to me. A 2/3" shoulder-mount camera with interchangeable lenses offers a lot more than any $3,000 camera will.
They'll sell a bazillion of the cheap cameras, and they'll probably sell just as many of the expensive cameras as they always did.
I think people don't really understand just how few of these big cameras get sold. I mean, how many CineAlta's are there in the market? A couple hundred? A thousand at most? And how many DVX's are there? A hundred thousand? How many PD150's... 200,000?
There just aren't that many big cameras sold. That's why they're expensive -- there has to be a lot of profit margin to pay for the R&D. And no, there's likely very little profit margin on the small cameras, which means they have to sell in bulk. Which means that if Panasonic sells 1,000 VariCams over its product life, and 100,000 mini-cams, they'll probably make about the same amount of net profit from both.
Look at it this way: how many Lamborghini Diablo's get sold every year? 50? And how many Ford Mustangs... 500,000? I really don't think the new Mustang, or the Mitsubishi Lancer EVO, have any (and I do mean *any*) effect on Ferrari or Lamborghini sales. And I don't expect that someone who's in the market for a CineAlta will say "well, now hold on a minute, let's buy an FX1 instead". Different market, different capabilities, different price points, different needs.
Jeff_Chandler
Member
Re: HDV the future?
>>They'll sell a bazillion of the cheap cameras, and they'll probably sell just as many of the expensive cameras as they always did.<<
Barry is absolutely correct. There is no real connection between the two. I really think that Panansonic is very likely to get this right, and if they do the could very well leave Sony in their HD dust. Being the first out the door doesn't aways equal the greatest success. Prosumer level HD or HDV is not a done deal yet. Widespred acceptance will determine who leads. And until there is a viable means to deliver a finished product (which Panny could have), this format is pretty meaningless for the immediate future.
>>They'll sell a bazillion of the cheap cameras, and they'll probably sell just as many of the expensive cameras as they always did.<<
Barry is absolutely correct. There is no real connection between the two. I really think that Panansonic is very likely to get this right, and if they do the could very well leave Sony in their HD dust. Being the first out the door doesn't aways equal the greatest success. Prosumer level HD or HDV is not a done deal yet. Widespred acceptance will determine who leads. And until there is a viable means to deliver a finished product (which Panny could have), this format is pretty meaningless for the immediate future.
SimonMW
Member
Re: HDV the future?
If some form of HD distribution isn't sorted out then HDV can never really take off.
I know some people say "well yeah, but HD-DVD will be out by the end of the year". Okay, that's fine. But how long before there is WRITABLE HD-DVD available? Things look a lot different now don't they?
Panasonic will have a huge advantage if they released a prosumer DVCPRO-HD camera purely because DVCPRO-HD is known, and respected by people who count already. Certainly such a camera would be much more ready for low level HD broadcast application than HDV. It won't compete with Cinealta obviously. However it's a format that's in use already, and that counts for loads.
If some form of HD distribution isn't sorted out then HDV can never really take off.
I know some people say "well yeah, but HD-DVD will be out by the end of the year". Okay, that's fine. But how long before there is WRITABLE HD-DVD available? Things look a lot different now don't they?
Panasonic will have a huge advantage if they released a prosumer DVCPRO-HD camera purely because DVCPRO-HD is known, and respected by people who count already. Certainly such a camera would be much more ready for low level HD broadcast application than HDV. It won't compete with Cinealta obviously. However it's a format that's in use already, and that counts for loads.
Re: HDV the future?
I am not debating that they can't put out a DVCPROHD camera for $3000, they can do anything they want and yes, it would be very beneficial to this segment of consumers, but make no biz sense.
Where did you get those numbers for dvx100 and pd150 sales. Have did you worked them? You are know for you extensive analysis? I think you might be over estimating the size of this market. You would think that with sales like those, the dvx would have been mentioned in Matsushita annual report, you know they own JVC too. I remember talking to a Nikon rep once and him telling how many SLRs Nikon had sold total, the number was stocking
I am not debating that they can't put out a DVCPROHD camera for $3000, they can do anything they want and yes, it would be very beneficial to this segment of consumers, but make no biz sense.
Where did you get those numbers for dvx100 and pd150 sales. Have did you worked them? You are know for you extensive analysis? I think you might be over estimating the size of this market. You would think that with sales like those, the dvx would have been mentioned in Matsushita annual report, you know they own JVC too. I remember talking to a Nikon rep once and him telling how many SLRs Nikon had sold total, the number was stocking
Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: HDV the future?
Those are absolute wild guesses, as wild as the flock of geese on Disjecta's back yard. I have no idea what the total number is. I do normally research things pretty thoroughly, but this is one that is a complete unknown, manufacturers just don't release that kind of info. That's why I put question marks after the numbers - because I don't know. However, I've talked to enough resellers and product reps and rental house people to have a glimmer of a guess, and I do believe that the numbers are probably not *extremely* far off -- I may be off by as much as 2 or 3 times, but I don't think I'd be off by an order of magnitude in either direction. So, there might be 200,000 PD150's out there, or there might be 100,000 or 300,000, but it's not like there's 20,000 or 2 million... there might be 200 VariCams, or 400, or maybe even 2,000 but there's not 20,000 of 'em.
I base the PD150 sales on the idea that it's been around a couple of years longer, and got extensive buy-in by networks and broadcasters. And recently the DVX has enjoyed similar successful buy-in, and among show producers as well. Those may be high numbers though... there might be only 50,000 DVX's and 100,000 PD150's. Even if I'm off by half, it still doesn't change the point that these little cameras are likely to have no impact on SDX, F900, and VariCam sales. And even if they do, what they take from one line will be added to the other, and I think the manufacturer's bottom line is likely to suffer very little, and probably going to improve.
Again, fairly wild guesses, but I don't know any better way to estimate the numbers... manufacturers don't release that data.
Those are absolute wild guesses, as wild as the flock of geese on Disjecta's back yard. I have no idea what the total number is. I do normally research things pretty thoroughly, but this is one that is a complete unknown, manufacturers just don't release that kind of info. That's why I put question marks after the numbers - because I don't know. However, I've talked to enough resellers and product reps and rental house people to have a glimmer of a guess, and I do believe that the numbers are probably not *extremely* far off -- I may be off by as much as 2 or 3 times, but I don't think I'd be off by an order of magnitude in either direction. So, there might be 200,000 PD150's out there, or there might be 100,000 or 300,000, but it's not like there's 20,000 or 2 million... there might be 200 VariCams, or 400, or maybe even 2,000 but there's not 20,000 of 'em.
I base the PD150 sales on the idea that it's been around a couple of years longer, and got extensive buy-in by networks and broadcasters. And recently the DVX has enjoyed similar successful buy-in, and among show producers as well. Those may be high numbers though... there might be only 50,000 DVX's and 100,000 PD150's. Even if I'm off by half, it still doesn't change the point that these little cameras are likely to have no impact on SDX, F900, and VariCam sales. And even if they do, what they take from one line will be added to the other, and I think the manufacturer's bottom line is likely to suffer very little, and probably going to improve.
Again, fairly wild guesses, but I don't know any better way to estimate the numbers... manufacturers don't release that data.
Re: HDV the future?
Barry ! lets do some more 'wild guesses'...
What do u think...Hasn't Pansonic already made its intentions clear about the HD format by not joining hands with the Sony group at an early stage? Meaning...any decision by them to join the HD alliance would be dictated purely by the market forces rather than their own desire to do so.
And to what extent this line of thinking on part of Panaosnic (which is a bazillion dollar comapny) will conversely affect the market forces?....e.g the European will or otherwise to adapt 1080 as the HD format.
Barry ! lets do some more 'wild guesses'...
What do u think...Hasn't Pansonic already made its intentions clear about the HD format by not joining hands with the Sony group at an early stage? Meaning...any decision by them to join the HD alliance would be dictated purely by the market forces rather than their own desire to do so.
And to what extent this line of thinking on part of Panaosnic (which is a bazillion dollar comapny) will conversely affect the market forces?....e.g the European will or otherwise to adapt 1080 as the HD format.
Re: HDV the future?
I dunno . . . things seem to me moving rather rapidly toward 720p being the de facto HD standard (though there’s time to change) . . . which would certainly follow the usual pattern of mediocrity (whether or not Fox Sports considers it "finest HD standard").
Panasonic is a big company, but it is, frankly, one of many. It can’t sway market forces like, say, Microsoft can. Besides, JVC is in the HDV camp and it and Panasonic share a parent company, so there could be pressure from that direction.
I think it’s way too soon to tell what’s going to happen, and any guesses would indeed be wild.
I dunno . . . things seem to me moving rather rapidly toward 720p being the de facto HD standard (though there’s time to change) . . . which would certainly follow the usual pattern of mediocrity (whether or not Fox Sports considers it "finest HD standard").
Panasonic is a big company, but it is, frankly, one of many. It can’t sway market forces like, say, Microsoft can. Besides, JVC is in the HDV camp and it and Panasonic share a parent company, so there could be pressure from that direction.
I think it’s way too soon to tell what’s going to happen, and any guesses would indeed be wild.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: HDV the future?
[quote author=Aejaz link=board=sony;num=1104107398;start=0#13 date=12/28/04 at 01:41:59]What do u think...Hasn't Pansonic already made its intentions clear about the HD format by not joining hands with the Sony group at an early stage? Meaning...any decision by them to join the HD alliance would be dictated purely by the market forces rather than their own desire to do so. [/quote]
Any guesses would indeed be wild, rampant speculation. Obviously it's noteworthy that the second-largest (are they the second-largest?) camcorder manufacturer has so far snubbed the proposed HDV standard. But... we rarely ever have a format launch that's uncontested... Beta vs. VHS, DVD-R vs. DVD+R, DVD-RAM vs. DVD-RW, SACD vs. DVD-Audio, BetaSP vs. MII, HD-DVD vs. blu-ray... so maybe an alternative format is in the cards. Then again, I think CD, DVD and DV were pretty much uncontested, so it does happen.
My personal guess is that Panasonic will introduce a low-end DVCPRO-HD camera (wow, big risk-taking there, right, seeing as they've already shown a prototype!) but I think they'll do it because they think HDV is not a professional format. For consumers, though, I don't see DVCPRO-HD in the home. There'll never be a $399 DVCPRO-HD camcorder. And with Sony and JVC and Canon and Sharp on board, it looks to me like if there will ever be an adoption of HD by the consumer, it'll be HDV. And if so, I expect that Panasonic will join the HDV coalition and make HDV cameras.
[quote author=Aejaz link=board=sony;num=1104107398;start=0#13 date=12/28/04 at 01:41:59]What do u think...Hasn't Pansonic already made its intentions clear about the HD format by not joining hands with the Sony group at an early stage? Meaning...any decision by them to join the HD alliance would be dictated purely by the market forces rather than their own desire to do so. [/quote]
Any guesses would indeed be wild, rampant speculation. Obviously it's noteworthy that the second-largest (are they the second-largest?) camcorder manufacturer has so far snubbed the proposed HDV standard. But... we rarely ever have a format launch that's uncontested... Beta vs. VHS, DVD-R vs. DVD+R, DVD-RAM vs. DVD-RW, SACD vs. DVD-Audio, BetaSP vs. MII, HD-DVD vs. blu-ray... so maybe an alternative format is in the cards. Then again, I think CD, DVD and DV were pretty much uncontested, so it does happen.
My personal guess is that Panasonic will introduce a low-end DVCPRO-HD camera (wow, big risk-taking there, right, seeing as they've already shown a prototype!) but I think they'll do it because they think HDV is not a professional format. For consumers, though, I don't see DVCPRO-HD in the home. There'll never be a $399 DVCPRO-HD camcorder. And with Sony and JVC and Canon and Sharp on board, it looks to me like if there will ever be an adoption of HD by the consumer, it'll be HDV. And if so, I expect that Panasonic will join the HDV coalition and make HDV cameras.
Europe apparently doesn't want to adopt 1080, they want progressive-scan (as we all should...) If there was 1080p/50 then it'd be a no-brainer, but there isn't, so for the fast refresh rate you have to go 720p. And that's what they're likely going to do. Which is no problem for HDV, as it supports 1080/50i as well as 720/50p. But it would be a problem for 1080i camcorder buyers (like FX1 and Z1).
Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: HDV the future?
[quote author=David Jimerson link=board=sony;num=1104107398;start=0#14 date=12/28/04 at 06:22:39]I dunno . . . things seem to me moving rather rapidly toward 720p being the de facto HD standard (though there’s time to change) . . . which would certainly follow the usual pattern of mediocrity (whether or not Fox Sports considers it "finest HD standard").[/quote]
First of all, yes, the highest-quality standard rarely "wins"...
But -- keep in mind, once you start looking at the pictures, there really isn't much difference between 1080 and 720, as a practical matter! 1080 is interlaced, and due to the kell factor (and such issues as row pair summation and low-pass filtering) it delivers around 800 discernable lines of resolution (and less on vertical moving objects). 720 is progressive, which means you get all 720 lines.
Horizontally, you're talking about 1440 vs. 1280. 160 pixels different.
Temporally, you're talking about 60% MORE discernible pixels per second for 1280x720x60p than for 1440x(about 400 per field)x60i.
1920 sure sounds better on paper, but in reality? I don't know, an argument could be made for 720 being "finest HD standard". I've got to figure a way to test this...
[quote author=David Jimerson link=board=sony;num=1104107398;start=0#14 date=12/28/04 at 06:22:39]I dunno . . . things seem to me moving rather rapidly toward 720p being the de facto HD standard (though there’s time to change) . . . which would certainly follow the usual pattern of mediocrity (whether or not Fox Sports considers it "finest HD standard").[/quote]
First of all, yes, the highest-quality standard rarely "wins"...
But -- keep in mind, once you start looking at the pictures, there really isn't much difference between 1080 and 720, as a practical matter! 1080 is interlaced, and due to the kell factor (and such issues as row pair summation and low-pass filtering) it delivers around 800 discernable lines of resolution (and less on vertical moving objects). 720 is progressive, which means you get all 720 lines.
Horizontally, you're talking about 1440 vs. 1280. 160 pixels different.
Temporally, you're talking about 60% MORE discernible pixels per second for 1280x720x60p than for 1440x(about 400 per field)x60i.
1920 sure sounds better on paper, but in reality? I don't know, an argument could be made for 720 being "finest HD standard". I've got to figure a way to test this...
Re: HDV the future?
There's 1080p as well.
But yes, most TVs display 1080 only interlaced -- if they display 1080 at all, which pretty much all plasma screens don't.
However, I do see a difference between 720p and 1080i. But it looks like 720 might become the VHS of HD, especially as plasma seems to be the "it" item.
There's 1080p as well.
But yes, most TVs display 1080 only interlaced -- if they display 1080 at all, which pretty much all plasma screens don't.
However, I do see a difference between 720p and 1080i. But it looks like 720 might become the VHS of HD, especially as plasma seems to be the "it" item.
ChuckS
Veteran
Re: HDV the future?
Barry, it’s hard to argue with your logic. :-X All but one of the format wars you mentioned, Beta vs. VHS, DVD-R vs. DVD+R, DVD-RAM vs. DVD-RW, BetaSP vs. MII, is evolutionary, the outcome had little effect on the end user. However, HD is a discontinuous innovation, which requires a new infrastructure and the end user to purchase a new set. This format war is being fought a little further up the food chain HD-DVD vs. blu-ray. Sony [who purchased MGM] and Disney backing blu-ray [giving them approximately 30% of Hollywood’s content] and the other major studios getting behind HD-DVD [or approximately 40%]
Recently I saw the first consumer HD-DVD at BestBuy for $150 it looked great. With the introduction of HD resolution DVD’s, HD will finally gain enough traction and will experience explosive growth. In much the same way that you described the complete product line for the Panasonic cameras, Sony is trying to offer a complete product line of HD consumer electronics – that’s where HDV comes in. This puts Sony in a good position to squeeze Panasonic from both the prosumer and professional sides.
You’re right, it isn’t necessarily the best format or company that wins. Panasonic might well have the best products but once the hyper growth in the HD market begins may not be in a position to meet its shareholders expectations and be relegated to the technology scrap heap along with the 8-track player. Moreover, if you think this can’t happen, do you remember a little company named “Ampex?”
IMHO if Panasonic needs to release a 720P version of the DVX100a.
Just a thought…
Barry, it’s hard to argue with your logic. :-X All but one of the format wars you mentioned, Beta vs. VHS, DVD-R vs. DVD+R, DVD-RAM vs. DVD-RW, BetaSP vs. MII, is evolutionary, the outcome had little effect on the end user. However, HD is a discontinuous innovation, which requires a new infrastructure and the end user to purchase a new set. This format war is being fought a little further up the food chain HD-DVD vs. blu-ray. Sony [who purchased MGM] and Disney backing blu-ray [giving them approximately 30% of Hollywood’s content] and the other major studios getting behind HD-DVD [or approximately 40%]
Recently I saw the first consumer HD-DVD at BestBuy for $150 it looked great. With the introduction of HD resolution DVD’s, HD will finally gain enough traction and will experience explosive growth. In much the same way that you described the complete product line for the Panasonic cameras, Sony is trying to offer a complete product line of HD consumer electronics – that’s where HDV comes in. This puts Sony in a good position to squeeze Panasonic from both the prosumer and professional sides.
You’re right, it isn’t necessarily the best format or company that wins. Panasonic might well have the best products but once the hyper growth in the HD market begins may not be in a position to meet its shareholders expectations and be relegated to the technology scrap heap along with the 8-track player. Moreover, if you think this can’t happen, do you remember a little company named “Ampex?”
IMHO if Panasonic needs to release a 720P version of the DVX100a.
Just a thought…