HDMI Atomos Ninja Hard Disk Recorder 795$

Ryan-Guy said:
Hey David, I just received the Ninja for my AF100. LOOKS AMAZING. Thank you for creating such an awesome product! I was able to really push the CC really hard and it handled it much much better than the native codec.

One simple request/suggestion for a firmware update: Can you give us the option to flip the image on the screen so that we can orientate the screen upside-down if we need? I find that I want to have the HDMI cord face inward towards my camera when it is mounted off to the left, and the cable sort of sticks out.

Thanks again!
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Thanks for the feedback!

We will be doing this. It's a good idea. That's one advantage of having a touchscreen interface!

I'm not sure exactly when we'll be doing this. It will be in a firmware update soon.

Dave Shapton
Atomos
 
Hi guys, I need some help please .
I would like to buy a Atomos Samurai or Atomos Ninja...but I have few questions :

1) what are the differences between the samurai and the ninja ?

2) does the Ninja support 1080 60p ?

3) which are the dsrl that have a full HD HDMI Out signal ?

4) Do u know of any ultra compact camera (ie small as the sony TX series) that has a full HD HDMI Output signal ?

5) what are HD-SDI ports and SDI Loop connections and how they differ from hdmi ?

6) do u know which is the recording autonomy (for how long the ninja is going to record before the battery dies) of the ninja when using two 7200 mah batteries to power it on ?

Thank you
 
1. Mainly HD-SDI (Samurai) vs. HDMI (Ninja), plus more powerful processor and more features in the Samurai, and $1500 Samurai vs. $1000 Ninja.
2. Nothing supports 1080/60p yet.
3. Doesn't really matter, no DSLR outputs a signal worth recording anyway.
4. All conventional camcorders with HDMI ports have full HD HDMI output.
5. HDMI is a fragile consumer connector. HD-SDI is a high-quality professional video connector.
 
Barry_Green said:
1. Mainly HD-SDI (Samurai) vs. HDMI (Ninja), plus more powerful processor and more features in the Samurai, and $1500 Samurai vs. $1000 Ninja.
2. Nothing supports 1080/60p yet.
3. Doesn't really matter, no DSLR outputs a signal worth recording anyway.
4. All conventional camcorders with HDMI ports have full HD HDMI output.
5. HDMI is a fragile consumer connector. HD-SDI is a high-quality professional video connector.
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Hi, thank you for the reply.
Reading your reply, makes me think that recording videos via HDMI using a Ninja or Samurai, would give me a lose in quality in comparison to instead recording the videos directly into the camcorder or DSRL.....and this comes from :

1) Nothing supports 1080/60p yet = so lets say I have a camcorder that can record in 60p, the ninja is useless, because it would just record in 60i .......I heard about a firmware upgrade for the ninja so that could record in 60p, is that true ?

2) DSLR outputs a signal worth recording anyway. = it makes me think again that the best way to do is to record the video in camera....recording a video taken with a dsrl into the ninja using an hdmi cable, would give me a lower quality video in comaprison to recordin it in the camera....why the hdmi out video quality can not compare to the in camera video quality ?

3) when u say that : "All conventional camcorders with HDMI ports have full HD HDMI output" do u mena that maybe the ninja would work mostly for camcorders , since the hdmi out of camcorders is a full hd hdmi in compariso to the one of dsrl that is not a full hdmi output ?

4) in terms of video quality output, id the HD-SDI better than the hdmi ?

Thank you so much
 
Well...

1) what camera are you talking about that does 1080/60p? Very very few cameras can do that at all. And even of those that can, I don't think any of them can output that 60p signal over the HDMI port. Most definitely no DSLR can do that. And I don't know if the Ninja could have a firmware update to support 1080/60p -- only someone from Atomos could ansewr that.

2) DSLRs are very inexpensive products and they simply don't use the highest-quality components and circuitry. No DSLR has a usable and worthwhile HDMI output. The only one that comes close is the GH2, and it has many many issues with its output that make direct recording a lot more difficult than it should be.

3) Definitely.

4) No, the potential video quality of HDMI and HD-SDI are identical. The differences are in the connector, the cables used, the ability to carry timecode, and support for standards such as 24PsF. HDMI is basically designed for consumers to plug a blu-ray player into a TV. HD-SDI was designed by the broadcast video industry to withstand any and all professional usages.
 
Ninja and LANC

Ninja and LANC

Trying to find a solution for remote controlling of the Ninja. Bought myself a new Manfrotto Lanc-controller (521i), but this one does NOT work together with the Ninja. According to Atomos, the Lanc-Loop has to be connected to a LANC-controllable camera as well, in order for this to work.
I´m using a JVC GY-HM100 together with my Ninja, but this camera has no LANC.
Does anybody have a solution to my problem ? (I only need a remote REC start/stop function of my Ninja).

Bjarne
 
So my guess is that these HDMI recorders are a little step farther than all the DSRL , since none of the DSRL have a complete uncompressed HDMI output. Even the Gh2 has problems....

The way u say it, it seems that NOT all the Camcorders have uncompressed HDMI output. Few have it....what about the sony cx700 and the panasonic tx700 or tx900 ?


What about ultra compact cameras like the sony TX7 / TX9 / or the new TX10/tx100, do they have uncompressed HDMI output ?

For Full HD CCTV, the ones they are progressive scan, would NOT be comptible with the atomos

If I understood correctly, to see if an HDMI aoutput is full uncompressed, I have to connect the camera/camcorders to a TV using the HDMI cable and see if on the screen the info that apear on the LCD, appears too on the TV. If they appear, means that the HDMI output is NOT a full uncompressed HDMI signal.

Am I correct ?

Thank you so much for the feedback...
 
Put it this way, the Atomos will record whatever comes through the HDMI. Other than the mid to high end camcorders, I'm not sure what these small camcorders spit out of the HDMI. Remember the HDMI output was originally intended as a monitoring solution and not something to record from.
 
marcolisi said:
So my guess is that these HDMI recorders are a little step farther than all the DSRL , since none of the DSRL have a complete uncompressed HDMI output. Even the Gh2 has problems....

The way u say it, it seems that NOT all the Camcorders have uncompressed HDMI output. Few have it....what about the sony cx700 and the panasonic tx700 or tx900 ?


What about ultra compact cameras like the sony TX7 / TX9 / or the new TX10/tx100, do they have uncompressed HDMI output ?



For Full HD CCTV, the ones they are progressive scan, would NOT be comptible with the atomos

If I understood correctly, to see if an HDMI aoutput is full uncompressed, I have to connect the camera/camcorders to a TV using the HDMI cable and see if on the screen the info that apear on the LCD, appears too on the TV. If they appear, means that the HDMI output is NOT a full uncompressed HDMI signal.

Am I correct ?

Thank you so much for the feedback...
Click to expand...

Just wanted to step in here with a few points.

1) HDMI is the same quality as SDI
2) HDMI is always uncompressed. It can't carry a compressed signal.
3) Every camera that I have seen outputs the HDMI signal (effectively) direct from the sensor rather than post-compression. (I say "effectively" because there will be some processing going on to reduce the multi-megapixel image to a standard HD one)
4) We can only record what we receive over HDMI. Most cameras output some sort of interlaced signal over HDMI that is usually derived from the progressive original frames. All of the progressive image is there but you may need to "Strip" the signal through software to retrieve it. Our own Stripper software is going to be available soon and will do this quickly and efficiently.
5) There seems to be a growing misunderstanding that the Ninja can only handle interlaced footage. This is completely wrong. We can handle whatever type of signal we are passed over HDMI. If we are sent 24p, we can record it. But most camcorders "wrap" their progressive footage in an interlaced signal using pulldown, that is reversible with software.
6) Most DSLRs output viewfinder junk in the HDMI signal. We have to record this if we are sent it. So most DSLRs will not work with external recorders currently. That's not just us: it's anyone that makes an external recorder. It's not our fault, it's the manufacturers. This may change in the future if they decide to stop doing this.
7) Our "Samurai" recorder has SDI and pulldown removal in hardware
8) HDMI is not a great connector but it is not terrible. I know Barry thinks it's the worst connector that's ever been designed - if that's the word; but we have enough Ninjas out there now to know that the HDMI cable produces very few issues. The Ninja's HDMI socket is super-tight and, if you use a flexible cable, is unlikely to cause problems. If you use a really stiff cable with no cable-management, then you can have problems, but the HDMI connection is no reason to discount the Ninja.
9) There is no number 9.

Dave Shapton
Atomos
 
marcolisi said:
The way u say it, it seems that NOT all the Camcorders have uncompressed HDMI output.
Click to expand...
HDMI is always uncompressed. It's just not always very good. On cheap cameras, corners get cut, lesser quality components are used, etc. And on something like the Canon DSLRs, you can never turn off all the display overlays anyway, so something will always be recorded over your footage (i.e., it's not a "clean" output.)

what about the sony cx700 and the panasonic tx700 or tx900 ?
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Any camcorder should have proper HDMI output on it.


What about ultra compact cameras like the sony TX7 / TX9 / or the new TX10/tx100, do they have uncompressed HDMI output ?[.quote]
Haven't used them, but if they're designed as video cameras, they should have proper HDMI output. THe problem with the DSLRs is they are not video cameras, they are still cameras. Therefore they have many compromises that video cameras don't have.

For Full HD CCTV, the ones they are progressive scan, would NOT be comptible with the atomos
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Of course they're compatible.
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David Shapton said:
1) HDMI is the same quality as SDI
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Except that HDMI doesn't do 24PsF, it doesn't carry timecode, and the cable and connector is nowhere near the same quality as HD-SDI. The underlying digital video data is the same, but everything else is different, and better, in SDI.

3) Every camera that I have seen outputs the HDMI signal (effectively) direct from the sensor rather than post-compression. (I say "effectively" because there will be some processing going on to reduce the multi-megapixel image to a standard HD one)
Click to expand...
Point of clarification -- no camera outputs "direct from the sensor"; people will think that you're talking about RAW at that point, and it most definitely isn't. Typically a camera's sensor output goes to the digital signal processor where it gets chopped and sliced, processed into 8-bit data, chroma subsampled to 4:2:2 or even 4:2:0, the color and gamma options you've chosen get applied, and then that image is sent simultaneously to the codec for recording, and to the HDMI output for monitoring.

8) HDMI is not a great connector but it is not terrible. I know Barry thinks it's the worst connector that's ever been designed - if that's the word; but we have enough Ninjas out there now to know that the HDMI cable produces very few issues. The Ninja's HDMI socket is super-tight and, if you use a flexible cable, is unlikely to cause problems. If you use a really stiff cable with no cable-management, then you can have problems, but the HDMI connection is no reason to discount the Ninja.
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I do think the HDMI connector is the worst thing to ever be foistered onto the video production community. Well, let me clarify -- the HDMI connector is the second-worst connector ever. The mini-HDMI connector is far and away the worst connector in the history of all connectors ever. The Ninja, to its credit, at least uses the full size HDMI connector.

Reports of issues with HDMI will depend on what people are used to. Some people think DSLRs are just a perfectly hunky dory way to shoot video, and then there are those who would really rather not. Some will find HDMI just perfectly pleasant, and there are those of us who find it unacceptable.

It is not the fault of the Ninja that it is stuck with an HDMI connector, I mean, heck, what else is it supposed to have when it is an HDMI recorder? You have to play the hand the camcorder manufacturers dealt you. But I would never under any circumstances prefer to trust my footage to HDMI if there is any other choice possible. On the Nano it has both HDMI and SDI, and I use SDI at all times and in all places.

That is, as Dave said, just me though. You all can make up your own minds as to what you want to use.
 
The worst connector in the world was the Firewire connector on the HVX 200, or is at least in the same league as the mini HDMI.

Frank
 
Well, first of all, the hvx's FireWire connector was the same as every dv camera's FireWire connector. 4-pin is 4-pin, so no reason to single the hvx out for that.

But you have reminded me: perhaps the worst connector ever, maybe even worse than mini Hdmi, was the hvx's analog component connector. Blech.
 
Barry_Green said:
maybe even worse than mini Hdmi, was the hvx's analog component connector. Blech.
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What you mean the same one used on the HPX500 as well? :P Yeah horrible. The pins on the cables that hold it in are ratted after one use, then youre fighting it. At least the 500 has HD-SDI as well.
 
Barry_Green said:
... And on something like the Canon DSLRs, you can never turn off all the display overlays anyway, so something will always be recorded over your footage (i.e., it's not a "clean" output.) ...
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The magic lantern firmware hack gets rid of the overlays on some Canon DSLRs. I went to a local reseller and tried it with a T2i with Magic Lantern. While the reseller was not rushing me in the least, I couldn't spend all day futzing with it. It did recognize that I was getting a 1080/60i signal but I didn't get anything useful recorded to my SSD. Perhaps my HDMI cable had issues (works to my TV, however) or, even with Magic Lantern, it does not work. I'd be interested in hearning from anyone else who used Magic Lantern for this purpose.
 
Hey David, I'm doing some long-run tests on the Ninja, and the clips that are being produced are no larger than 4.28 gigs., where it then starts a new clip within the take. Is that normal or are clips supposed to be one continuous .mov clip until I stop recording?

I am using the 750g Hitachi 5400rpm HDD, so if there are issues then they may be the cause.
 
Ryan-Guy said:
Hey David, I'm doing some long-run tests on the Ninja, and the clips that are being produced are no larger than 4.28 gigs., where it then starts a new clip within the take. Is that normal or are clips supposed to be one continuous .mov clip until I stop recording?

I am using the 750g Hitachi 5400rpm HDD, so if there are issues then they may be the cause.
Click to expand...

Hi Ryan,

What you're seeing is the way we deal with the fact that drives formatted as FAT 32 will not record more than 4GB at a time. So we split the video into 4GB chunks. If you use FCP's "Import Folder" instead of "Import File" option, you can drag the entire folder to the timeline, and all your chunks will be side-by-side as if they were a single clip. None of this affects the quality of the video. It's definitely not a problem with your hard drive.

We've done it this way because FAT 32 is a cross-platform format that works with more types of device than any others.

However, we realise that this is not ideal for everyone, and we can and most likely will implement other file systems that will allow you to record video in a single, contiguous chunk.

By the way - a couple of things:

1) Some people have said that we've done it this way because the Ninja can't record long files. This is nonsense. In fact, we DO capture the video as a continuous file, and then we have to do additional work to divide it into chunks!
2) Although it's not ideal, there is an advantage to doing it this way: If you ever get a corrupt file, it will only ever be a few minutes of video that you loose, and not the whole take.

Dave Shapton
Atomos
 
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