HD??? Which way to go?

B

Bryan_Lawler

Well-known member
First, I am not sure if this is the correct place to post this question. If not, I'm sorry and please move it to the correct spot. - Thanks



Okay, I know this is kinda like an open ended questions... But, I am about to start a couple of documentary projects and am looking about filming them in high definition. Am am wanting to buy one or two cameras. I know that you can't do a straight comparison with all of them, however, I am interested in some feedback and opinions. My first questions is if I should wait till one of the two Sony's are released in February? The Sony HVR-Z7 ($ 6,850.00) and Sony HVR-S270 ($10,500.00) that record to disk or tape and has interchangeable lens. I really like the feature of tapeless filming. If I am correct there is only the Panasonic AG-HVX200 ($ 5,199.95) that also records to disk or tape and the new Sony PMW-EX1 ($ 6,699.00) only records to disc, which means you have to have a lot of disc or be able to download footage often.

Then we go from there to the other HD cameras...

Canon XH-A1 ($ 3,299.95)
Sony HVR-Z1U ($ 4,900.00)
Canon XH-G1 ($ 5,999.95)

or even the JVC GY-HD200U ($ 6,495.00) and the JVC GY-HD100U ($ 4,599.00).

Thank you in advance for your feedback and input. I know that in the next six to twelve months it will all change, but I want to make the best informed decision I can now. So, I'm wondering if my best options are between Sony HVR-Z7, Panasonic AG-HVX200, Canon XH-A1 or JVC GY-HD100U/200U?

Thanks,

Bryan


Ps. Does anyone know if the Panasonic AG-HPX500 comes with the lens for $10,499.95. The describe on B&H's site doesn't say one way or the other.
 
No offense intended, but these comparisons are all over the boards.

What did it for me after owning a Z1U was:

1. HVX200 better color space;

2. HVX200 with 100 mbps DVCProHD I-Frame.

The others don't come close in my view.

But that is my view.
 
David,

No offense taken. I am looking for personal views and opinions. They may be all over the board, but they are in the same price range and ones to compare to.

Thanks,

Bryan
 
Documentary brings a host of issues with it that don't necessarily apply to other cams. Zoom range, low light performance, recording time, weight, form factor (shoulder mount, etc).

Do you need to record scads of footage? If so, tapeless may not be the most economical choice. Do you need ultimate reliability in the footage you're recording (i.e., once-in-a-lifetime shots, etc?) If so, no way would I trust that job to HDV tape.

If you're shooting tons of footage, you may appreciate the form factor of the HD200 or the HV20. Or maybe you wouldn't. We can't tell from here, we need a lot more info.
 
This David agrees with the other David. I use a z1u at school, but recently got to use an hvx200. I don't think you'd be disappointed with the hvx. In documentary, I think people open up differently to a giant over-the-shoulder rig than they do a small HV20. Just a theory. Listen to Barry^
 
Barry,

Thanks. First are you saying that HDV tape is not reliable? If so, what format should I be recording to. Isn't all footage recorded for a project important? As far as the amount of footage recorded at one time... I think I could get a way with recording tapeless with the HD200 two P2 card slots. I would say most of my filming would be during the day (in the field) or in a controlled lighting situation. Although, I think low light performance is always an important feature of any camera. I have had shoulder mount cameras in the past and have always like them but as the other David said, people to respond different to them. Also, to portability of a small handheld camera doesn't draw as much attention.

Thanks guys. This is good information, helping me to think through exactly what I am looking for. Please feel free to ask any questions to help me make my decision.

Thanks,

Bryan
 
Bryan:

You need to do more research, you are all over the place.

HVX and PMW-EX1 record to solid state cards not disc.

All of the lower end cameras you listed are HDV, which is handy because it's cheap and on tape but most pros don't use the format because it's long GOP, highly compressed and limited color space. Also, the HDV codec exhibits motion artifacting regardless of camera.

The HPX will run you about $24,000.0 with most of the stuff you need. The $10,000.00 plus price does NOT include the lens, that's really just for the bare body. Whole other ballgame from all of the other cameras you are discussing.

You need to narrow down your budget first of all and realize that a camera is just the beginning. Unless you already own a complete prodction package with sound, lighting and grip, you are talking about tens of thousands of dollars above and beyond the camera itself.

If you do already have all of the other supporting gear, you need camera, case, batteries, filters, tripod, monitor, possibly zoom and or iris control, etc. A good tripod begins at about $2,000.00 and rises rapidly from there. The most common mistake is that users spend every penny hey have on a camera that exceeds their budget, they they end up with a crappy tripod, no or inadeqaute monitor, etc. Since you are budgeting for the entire package, make sure you include enough batteries, filters, matte box, quality tripod, etc. in your overall budget. Then you will be a happy camper! ;-)

Dan
 
Bryan_Lawler said:
Barry,

Thanks. First are you saying that HDV tape is not reliable?
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HDV tape is probably the least reliable tape format in use. Does that mean it's "not reliable"? Depends on your tolerance; many people would say it's plenty reliable. Depends on what your tolerance for errors/dropouts/glitches is. For example, I'm producing a no-budget doc in 2008 that will shoot on two HV20s. They're the right cameras for that project, the budget point is right, the timeframe is massive (shot over about 10 months) and none of the footage will likely be ultra-crucial, and I'll have two cams running simultaneously so if one cam screws us, the other one should have us covered. But if I was recording a meeting with the Dalai Lama meeting Osama bin Laden, do you think I'd show up with HDV tape? Hell no. If you have once-in-a-lifetime footage do you want to record it on a media that's capable of dropping 1/2-second (minimum) to two seconds at a time? I wouldn't. You may. That's your own decision to make.

It's all up to your tolerance of risk. There is no free lunch. Recording a high-def signal on a $3 mini-DV tape involves tradeoffs.

If so, what format should I be recording to.
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Record to the media that makes sense for your project. There is nothing more reliable than solid state. Some people love the FireStore, I don't trust hard disk recorders. Tape is the economy king and if you're recording hundreds of hours of footage in remote locations it's the obvious choice.

Isn't all footage recorded for a project important?
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Of course not. If you're shooting a 200:1 ratio (not necessarily unheard of for a long-term doc) then obviously not all 300 hours of footage are "important"; some will be much more important than others. If you're primarily "firehosing" while waiting for something to happen, the percentage of your footage that's "important" will be a lot lower than, say, scheduled interviews would be. Some stuff will be crucial, some will be important, some will be "let's just see if anything happens while the camera's rolling", etc.
 
Dan,

You need to do more research, you are all over the place.
Click to expand...

That is what I am trying to do, in the price range is there one camera that stands out more than the other and why. I think that is what we are getting at here with the difference of HDV on the Canon and JVC versus the format of the HVX, PMW-EX1 and soon to be HVR-Z7.

HVX and PMW-EX1 record to solid state cards not disc.
Click to expand...

Sorry, for not using the "correct" terminology.

You need to narrow down your budget first of all and realize that a camera is just the beginning. Unless you already own a complete prodction package with sound, lighting and grip, you are talking about tens of thousands of dollars above and beyond the camera itself.
Click to expand...

I do understand that. I do have some lights, sound equipment and grip items along with tripod, case, filters and monitor (not hd). However, I will be adding more. As far as my budget. I was looking at $5,000 - 10,000 for the camera and $10,000 on other equipment that I would need to supplement the camera and project.

Thanks,

Bryan
 
Barry,

Thanks for the clarification on the HDV tape reliability. From using mini DV I would have thought it would have the same reliability. You raise a good point and the answer is no. I don't want to risk dropping and frames. So, what about using tapes like the Sony DVM-63HD Mini DV Video or the Panasonic AY-DVM63HD 63 Minute Mini DV?

Thanks,

Bryan
 
Bryan: I shot a whole bunch of footage with a Z1U. I initially used the premium HDV tapes, and then started using the normal Mini DV tapes.

I didn't experience any drop outs, which are about a half second. However, the severely compressed nature of HDV tape acquisition makes this an eventual issue.

No way around it.

The difference between HDV and DVCProHD is stated over and over and over again here and all over the internet.

Color space is different and one is I-Frame and the other Long GOP.

Post with DVCProHD footage is a dream. HDV requires conforming.

Our SD DVDs that originate from DVCProHD footage are fabulous. We saw a material difference between SD DVDs using HDV footage and DVCProHD footage.

The EX-1 uses a rolling shutter CMOS set up which presents issues versus a global shutter CCD arrangement on the Panasonic. There is article exploring differences here at dvxuser.com.

But what are you asking specifically?

I don't know because it seems the questions you are asking have asked and answered here and elsewhere for a number of months on the cams you mentioned and most recently on the EX-1.
 
From using mini DV I would have thought it would have the same reliability
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On miniDV you get occasional dropouts, but they usually result in only little glitches on a frame here or there. On HDV that same dropout results in an entire half of a second of footage "disappearing". So even though it's the same tape, and the same incidence of dropouts occurring, the consequences of a dropout are dramatically magnified on HDV.

If you have to use HDV, use the very best tapes you can possibly get. The Sony with the CF recorder seems like an interesting option; that way you could have tapes and a backup recording on CF.

I'm sure you'll hear plenty of people saying "dropouts aren't a problem, I shoot HDV all the time, etc" so use your own judgement as to how much you trust the format. For mission critical work, I don't. I'm using it for the HV20 doc because it's the only budget choice that makes sense, and the risk of loss is mitigated by the fact that if it wasn't for the economy of HDV tape I probably wouldn't do the project at all. HDV tape is reasonably reliable for consumer work; I don't think it's a professional solution at all. Your opinion may vary.
 
Hi Bryan:

Sorry if I came across as short, not trying to...it's just that when someone is exploring $3,000.00 versus $23,000.00 cameras, that raises flags in my mind

As far as one camera standing out, a lot of that is opinion and what your needs are. The Sony PMW-EX1 is capable of shooting great footage, I have seen it in action and have viewed the footage. It's limitations are that it records to a brand new as of yet unproven SxS card format, it shoots long GOP format, it shoots a 35Mbps format and it has a CMOS rolling shutter. Also, if you explore other boards, you will discover that many of the first PMW-EX1s delivered are exhibiting a vignetting issue that have created several very unsatisfied customers.

The HVX is VERY popular. It too is capable of shooting beautiful footage. I have been shooting the HVX for about two years now and it is a great camera. That said, it's limitations seem to be weak low light performance, a noisier picture than several other cameras, the inherent cost and size limitations for acquiring large amounts of footage without the correct production infrastructure (either lots of 16 and 32GB P 2 cards and or lots of labor to keep dumping smaller cards as you shoot). Of course the PMW-EX1 will have those same issues and I don't believe Sony has a 32GB SxS card yet although I am sure that they will soon.

The new Sonys are an unknown commodity. I am sure that like the PMW-EX1, they will basically be good cameras but chances are that they too will ship with some issues and problems as many cameras do. The HVX shipped with what many users called a "macroblocking" problem. Turned out that it was mostly caused by inexperienced HiDef shooters looking at HVX footage on mostly Dell and other low end computer monitors. I have seen the HVX footage on the Dells and it looks horrible but viewing HD on a computer monitor is not accurate in the least. Turned out that the issue was not enough HVX users stepping up to the plate to buy "real" HD monitors in the beginning. So that "issue" really wasn't an issue. The PMW-EX1 vignetting issue does seem to be a real issue in that Sony has been recalling cameras. I am sure that it is being resolved because I have not seen any new threads about it so by now, it may be a non-issue.

It sounds as if you are being realistic about budget for the HVX, PMW-EX1 and the new Sonys. If you are concerned about quality and any of your footage is unrepeatable, I personally would recommend avoiding HDV. I have shot a lot of HDV and while the dropouts are rare, it's Murphy's Law that if you get one, it will be right in the middle of your killer, once in a lifetime take. The DVCProHD codec is a very efficient and useful codec, easy to edit, yet it looks great.

If you can wait, I would check out the new Sonys when they ship. If not, you sound as if you should be considering the HVX and or the PMW-EX1, IF dealing with solid state memory cards works for you. The bottom line is, if you have enough budget to buy a lot of cards, you will love it. If you don't, you will probably be a frustrated shooter and might be happier with tape. I regularly shoot all day, for days at a time with 5-7 16GB P2 cards and it's great. Shoot all day, dump the cards to drives at night. Of course, 7 16GB P2 cards costs $6,300.00 It sounds as if you can afford that. If you can, I think you would highly enjoy the HVX or the PMW-EX1. However, you should read this article and discover if you can live with the limitations of the Sony CMOS rolling shutter http://dvxuser.com/jason/CMOS-CCD/

Hope that this is helpful to you.

Dan

Bryan_Lawler said:
Dan,



That is what I am trying to do, in the price range is there one camera that stands out more than the other and why. I think that is what we are getting at here with the difference of HDV on the Canon and JVC versus the format of the HVX, PMW-EX1 and soon to be HVR-Z7.



Sorry, for not using the "correct" terminology.



I do understand that. I do have some lights, sound equipment and grip items along with tripod, case, filters and monitor (not hd). However, I will be adding more. As far as my budget. I was looking at $5,000 - 10,000 for the camera and $10,000 on other equipment that I would need to supplement the camera and project.

Thanks,

Bryan
Click to expand...
 
Dan,

Sorry if I came across as short, not trying to...it's just that when someone is exploring $3,000.00 versus $23,000.00 cameras, that raises flags in my mind.
Click to expand...

No problem. I didn't take that way. I am not exploring any $23,000 camera. I was only curious if the AG-HPX500 comes with the lens or not since it is list on B&H for $10,499.95 and doesn't talk about a lens one way or the other. The price range I am exploring is $3,000 (Canon XH-A1) to $7,000 (Sony HVR-Z7) or somewhere in between.

Thanks for all your comments. That was very enlightening. Staying away from the HDV format eliminates all the under $10,000 cameras except (as you mentioned) the HVX, EX1 and the unknown HVR-Z7.

Thanks for the link to the article. I will read it shortly.

Thanks,

Bryan
 
Bryan_Lawler said:
Staying away from the HDV format eliminates all the under $10,000 cameras except (as you mentioned) the HVX, EX1 and the unknown HVR-Z7.
Click to expand...

The EX1 also shoots LONG GOP, but to solid state cards.

Maximum of 35 mbps versus 100 mbps with DVCProHD.

It's color space is 4:2:0 versus 4:2:2 for the HVX200.

The information on the HVR-Z7 is that it shoots HDV1080i, DVCAM, or DV stream and can record HDV/DVCAM/DV files to a standard CompactFlash.

And it uses a rolling shutter CMOS rather than a global shutter CCD.

Have you reviewed the article on rolling shutters here?

Again, no offense intended, but it appears you keep missing the differences between the Panasonic and the Sony cams on a couple of key elements.
 
Hi Bryan:

You would realistically be looking at something along these lines to make an HPX fully functional. http://tinyurl.com/2dc3uy Don't forget the $7,000.00 for a suitable tripod and head and the $2,000.00 to $3,000.00 for a good battery system.

Drool!

Wish I could afford one.

Dan
 
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