Have $2k, I refuse to spend!
- Thread starter Paul V Doherty
- Start date
Jackson Miller
Well-known member
Paul, why don't you take your upper jaw and connect it to your lower jaw and stop talking. Or typing. Seriously these topics spring up all of the time it gets annoying. First of all most of what you are saying is wrong and second of all it doesn't matter because you will have no effect on how a company wants to run its business. Personally, I am so blown away by canon right now. They have been giving us everything we are asking for (in DSLRs) that they can and that is clear.
Also why do you keep talking about Nikon when you refer to the DSLRs? They have made it pretty clear so far that this is not a market they are interested in exploring. If they come out with an amazing new VDSLR then things will be different but as of now... urg nevermind, I am going to bed. bcd,wbcdlwbcldwblcdwblcdbwjlcdbwlcdbw.
Also why do you keep talking about Nikon when you refer to the DSLRs? They have made it pretty clear so far that this is not a market they are interested in exploring. If they come out with an amazing new VDSLR then things will be different but as of now... urg nevermind, I am going to bed. bcd,wbcdlwbcldwblcdwblcdbwjlcdbwlcdbw.
I absolutely don't want XLRs on my DSLR, the phrase "Tits on a Boar" comes to mind, sorry if it's a bit coarse.
I think....I hope, camera manufactures think the same. Put them on a Plug-in module, but not on the camera.
Most people buying these cams are photographers, not cinematographers, and lumbering a 5D / 7D sized cam with XLRs will pi$$ them off big-time.
Meanwhile I'm holding off until I see Digic V cams coming along.
Dave
I think....I hope, camera manufactures think the same. Put them on a Plug-in module, but not on the camera.
Most people buying these cams are photographers, not cinematographers, and lumbering a 5D / 7D sized cam with XLRs will pi$$ them off big-time.
Meanwhile I'm holding off until I see Digic V cams coming along.
Dave
According to Epistemology, to know something ....
1.) We must believe it to be true.
2.) We must be warranted to believe that it is true.
and the kicker ...
3.) It must indeed be true.
Your opinion probably fails steps 2 and 3. maybe even 1.
xmephestox
Carbonite Member
alright, i can't help it, i have to chime in. to state u know how much something really costs is ridiculous, nobody but the companies know how much it costs. to say "mass" market doesn't TRULY apply to this realm. the class of camera is prosumer, to professional broadcast, to cinema class. anything under prosumer is going to be 1500 dollars or less. your not gonna see a 18 year old, or ur average Joe buying a hpx 170, 5d mk II, or whatever.
prices go down according to supply and demand. you don't know how much a circuit board costs to make, or a sensor, or a optic element, or even the specialized housing they use. u don't know how much it costs to go through quality control, testing, PAYING their r&d to come up with great stuff like this. people wonder why a follow focus costs so much money, probably because only a couple thousand are sold every year. unless you see everybody in the world buy it like an ipod, ur not gonna see prices like that for that kind of quality. in the end in the big business world, it still is a niche market.
prices go down according to supply and demand. you don't know how much a circuit board costs to make, or a sensor, or a optic element, or even the specialized housing they use. u don't know how much it costs to go through quality control, testing, PAYING their r&d to come up with great stuff like this. people wonder why a follow focus costs so much money, probably because only a couple thousand are sold every year. unless you see everybody in the world buy it like an ipod, ur not gonna see prices like that for that kind of quality. in the end in the big business world, it still is a niche market.
Barry,
You are the man, and I'm not passionately disagreeing with you but check this out.
I think you'll dig this analogy:
Think about the time and effort we put into movies compared to paid gigs.
We all want our movies to be awesome, so we put in ridiculous hrs to make them the absolute best they can be. We work our butts off because we genuinely care about the final product, and we want it to be the best. At some point, we step back and say "Enough, we've given it our best, we can't afford to spend more time and money on this." And that's when it's done.
Now, for our paid gigs, the same is true. HOWEVER, the dollar sign is always looming in the background. We decide to by-pass certain things that could add value to the final product (like extra color-correction) because we think "hey, we've already given the client more than was promised, let's hand it in and get paid". There's nothing wrong with that thought, it's just business.
I'm not being naive when I assume that perhaps Canon and Panasonic have the means to deliver EXACTLY what we want, but choose not to. Do I think they're evil bastards? NO WAY! Perhaps they recognize that they've already over-delivered with these DSLRs and they'd like to get paid.
Now imagine a camera company that uses the same mentality as us when we make movies...
They literally do everything in their power to provide the best, and though they can't give cameras away, they'll give consumers the most bang for their buck that can be afforded. They actually love what they do, and if their "movie" (or camera) ends up being a hit and makes lots of money, then great, if not, well at least they tried their best.
Now in today's money driven world, how could we ever expect anyone to actually care that much about motion-capture... Waite a minute... JJ.
Scott Jenson
You are the man, and I'm not passionately disagreeing with you but check this out.
I think you'll dig this analogy:
Think about the time and effort we put into movies compared to paid gigs.
We all want our movies to be awesome, so we put in ridiculous hrs to make them the absolute best they can be. We work our butts off because we genuinely care about the final product, and we want it to be the best. At some point, we step back and say "Enough, we've given it our best, we can't afford to spend more time and money on this." And that's when it's done.
Now, for our paid gigs, the same is true. HOWEVER, the dollar sign is always looming in the background. We decide to by-pass certain things that could add value to the final product (like extra color-correction) because we think "hey, we've already given the client more than was promised, let's hand it in and get paid". There's nothing wrong with that thought, it's just business.
I'm not being naive when I assume that perhaps Canon and Panasonic have the means to deliver EXACTLY what we want, but choose not to. Do I think they're evil bastards? NO WAY! Perhaps they recognize that they've already over-delivered with these DSLRs and they'd like to get paid.
Now imagine a camera company that uses the same mentality as us when we make movies...
They literally do everything in their power to provide the best, and though they can't give cameras away, they'll give consumers the most bang for their buck that can be afforded. They actually love what they do, and if their "movie" (or camera) ends up being a hit and makes lots of money, then great, if not, well at least they tried their best.
Now in today's money driven world, how could we ever expect anyone to actually care that much about motion-capture... Waite a minute... JJ.
Scott Jenson
Barry_Green
Moderator
I'm not disagreeing with any of that. That's all perfectly true.
The only part where I got kind of sideways with the rest of the world on the whole JJ thing was when people started saying stuff like "Red's gonna give us a hundred thousand dollar camera for $17,500 and Jim can afford to do it because he's a billionaire." Like, he was actually selling Red Ones at a LOSS, and doing so because he was charitable and liked giving away his fortune.
That, I submit, was not a true and accurate view of the situation.
Other than that, sure, you're right. I do think that every once in a while something revolutionary comes along because the passion of the designer comes through, and very frequently I think that things are usually watered down on the way to the consumer, by accountants, by concerns about customer service issues, by concerns about marketing and service and support, and such as that.
What I vehemently disagree with is that notion that we could have a firebreathing octo-core Mac Pro with 12GHz chips TODAY, for only $400, if only Apple would quit trying to milk us and would just BUILD IT!!!11!!1!!! (which is, frankly, the equivalent of someone demanding a 1080/60fps 12-megapixel video camera for $2000, or whatever the wildly-out-of-step-with-the-marketplace demand-of-the-day is).
The only part where I got kind of sideways with the rest of the world on the whole JJ thing was when people started saying stuff like "Red's gonna give us a hundred thousand dollar camera for $17,500 and Jim can afford to do it because he's a billionaire." Like, he was actually selling Red Ones at a LOSS, and doing so because he was charitable and liked giving away his fortune.
That, I submit, was not a true and accurate view of the situation.
Other than that, sure, you're right. I do think that every once in a while something revolutionary comes along because the passion of the designer comes through, and very frequently I think that things are usually watered down on the way to the consumer, by accountants, by concerns about customer service issues, by concerns about marketing and service and support, and such as that.
What I vehemently disagree with is that notion that we could have a firebreathing octo-core Mac Pro with 12GHz chips TODAY, for only $400, if only Apple would quit trying to milk us and would just BUILD IT!!!11!!1!!! (which is, frankly, the equivalent of someone demanding a 1080/60fps 12-megapixel video camera for $2000, or whatever the wildly-out-of-step-with-the-marketplace demand-of-the-day is).
Yup, makes sense.
So there's option D (in reference to your first post).
D: it IS technologically feasible to do so at a price we're willing to pay, but since they'll still satisfy the market demand with less R&D, they make a safe business decision and hold off on the extra R&D. They still care about motion-capture, but there's money to be made now, and headphone jacks can wait
Jim's philosophy is nuts, but it's worked so far, we'll se what happens with Scarlet.
(Now back to editing...)
So there's option D (in reference to your first post).
D: it IS technologically feasible to do so at a price we're willing to pay, but since they'll still satisfy the market demand with less R&D, they make a safe business decision and hold off on the extra R&D. They still care about motion-capture, but there's money to be made now, and headphone jacks can wait
Jim's philosophy is nuts, but it's worked so far, we'll se what happens with Scarlet.
(Now back to editing...)
Barry_Green
Moderator
How does it follow that it is technologically feasible to do it now, at a price we'd be willing to pay?
The only one who's come anywhere close to it is Jim, and at $17,500 for body-only, that's a price that not many are willing to pay...
As for Scarlet, we'll find out in a week. Plus, they've already hinted at another delay; this time they say that Red's philosophy is changing. No more beta-testing of cameras in public, no more releasing a product before it's 100% finished. That will cause a delay (a "bump in the schedule") in Scarlet and Epic being released.
The only one who's come anywhere close to it is Jim, and at $17,500 for body-only, that's a price that not many are willing to pay...
As for Scarlet, we'll find out in a week. Plus, they've already hinted at another delay; this time they say that Red's philosophy is changing. No more beta-testing of cameras in public, no more releasing a product before it's 100% finished. That will cause a delay (a "bump in the schedule") in Scarlet and Epic being released.
I followed with "option D" because these companies have already shown us what they can do. The technology exists to have mud-free AVCHD (not saying they chose to add mud to the GH1, but saying they could have invested more to make it mud free). They understand how to make live HDMI out. Of course there's a price tag to these added features, but if the GH1 had no mud and live HDMI out, they'd sell more of them period.
These companies could create an accelerated program that listens intently to its users and invests lots of cash into creating the best motion-capture camera at the lowest price possible. Yes, they are doing this already, but MAYBE not to the extent that they could. Maybe their accountants are saying "It's too risky to invest in the DVXUSER dream cam. Let's satisfy the current market demand and keep our feet on the ground and our head out of the clouds...
These companies could create an accelerated program that listens intently to its users and invests lots of cash into creating the best motion-capture camera at the lowest price possible. Yes, they are doing this already, but MAYBE not to the extent that they could. Maybe their accountants are saying "It's too risky to invest in the DVXUSER dream cam. Let's satisfy the current market demand and keep our feet on the ground and our head out of the clouds...
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Barry_Green
Moderator
Okay, yes better technologies do exist, but it doesn't necessarily follow that you can cherry-pick this piece from this cam, and this piece from that cam, and have it still add up all to the same price.
Anyway, they do have a division that listens to DVXUser, and that is concentrating on making VIDEO cameras, not still cameras -- it's called the Broadcast/Professional division, Panasonic Broadcast and Television Systems Company (PBTSC). If the DVXUser Dream Cam is going to come from any division of Panasonic, that's who's gonna produce it.
Anyway, they do have a division that listens to DVXUser, and that is concentrating on making VIDEO cameras, not still cameras -- it's called the Broadcast/Professional division, Panasonic Broadcast and Television Systems Company (PBTSC). If the DVXUser Dream Cam is going to come from any division of Panasonic, that's who's gonna produce it.
Yeah, you're right. It'd take an incredible effort to compile all the features we want into a final product, and I'd be an idiot to assume the $1,700 price tag would still suffice.
But they can still do better, and instead of shaking my fist, I'll look up PBTSC and see if I can send them an email. Here's to the DVXUser Dream Cam
But they can still do better, and instead of shaking my fist, I'll look up PBTSC and see if I can send them an email. Here's to the DVXUser Dream Cam
Nitsuj
Well-known member
Some people are not happy with whatever is offered to them. By the time a camera comes out with their specs they demanded there will be a camera to come out with Ultra High Definition and then it will start all over again. Then there will be those that say "I'll just hold off until that camera comes out with these specs". They will continue to work their jobs they hate doing and dreaming of the job they would like to be doing. One day they will might get sick and while lying on their death bed they might say something like "Oh I should have just gotten whatever was out at the time and reached for my dream" while the nurse pumps them full of drugs saying "That's nice dear." If any of you are wanting to be a filmmaker but are just waiting for the next best thing while you work at a job you don't really care about, then stop waiting and just do it already. Nothing is stopping you but yourself. Not the technology, not the camera, not they money, only you are stopping yourself. The biggest obstacle for anybody is themselves. Okay rant over. buh-bye.
I have my own chaos cents to throw in to this.
How come in Japan all laptops, cameras and electronics are way more tricked out, latest editions bigger and better options? Even when a product is from an American company where design and development happened here? There products eventually get released here, but not all.
This is because their market is willing to pay.
Some of these gadgets from there get refactored to the americas market (dumbed down, features thrown away for one or another reason) by way of importing companies called XYZ of America which don't manufacture or develop anything, just import the stuff and provide service and warranty.
http://www.sony.jp/CorporateCruise/Press/200910/09-1021/
Read the specs, I don't believe this is how the states edition of these cams will look.
Lumix GH1 JP page: http://panasonic.jp/dc/gh1/movie_photographing2.html
Loving the HPX-305 and Edius marketting: http://panasonic.biz/sav/
Compare and Contrast
AG-HMR10 JP: http://panasonic.biz/sav/avccam/ag-hmr10/index.html
AG-HMR10 US: http://www.panasonic-broadcast.com/en/products/high-definition/avccam/AG-HMR10.php
AJ-HPM-110 - USA : http://www.panasonic-broadcast.com/en/products/p2-series/p2-mobile/AJ-HPM110.php
AJ-HPM-200 (DVCPRO and AVCHD and Intra) - Japan: http://panasonic.biz/sav/p2/aj-hpm200/index.html
How come in Japan all laptops, cameras and electronics are way more tricked out, latest editions bigger and better options? Even when a product is from an American company where design and development happened here? There products eventually get released here, but not all.
This is because their market is willing to pay.
Some of these gadgets from there get refactored to the americas market (dumbed down, features thrown away for one or another reason) by way of importing companies called XYZ of America which don't manufacture or develop anything, just import the stuff and provide service and warranty.
http://www.sony.jp/CorporateCruise/Press/200910/09-1021/
Read the specs, I don't believe this is how the states edition of these cams will look.
Lumix GH1 JP page: http://panasonic.jp/dc/gh1/movie_photographing2.html
Loving the HPX-305 and Edius marketting: http://panasonic.biz/sav/
Compare and Contrast
AG-HMR10 JP: http://panasonic.biz/sav/avccam/ag-hmr10/index.html
AG-HMR10 US: http://www.panasonic-broadcast.com/en/products/high-definition/avccam/AG-HMR10.php
AJ-HPM-110 - USA : http://www.panasonic-broadcast.com/en/products/p2-series/p2-mobile/AJ-HPM110.php
AJ-HPM-200 (DVCPRO and AVCHD and Intra) - Japan: http://panasonic.biz/sav/p2/aj-hpm200/index.html
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Are you going to review the Scarlet when it is released Barry?
Paul V Doherty
Active member
I would pay $2-3k for a D90/7D repackaged in motion capture form factor, jello and 5 minute time limit included!
Does it not seem reasonable that this could be done at that price point?
Does it not seem reasonable that this could be done at that price point?
G
Guest
Guest
We might not be able to shoot the moon, but we could at least hit the lamp post. Some of the features they left out were pretty lame. Most notably nikons auto shutter and ISO: no manual control in video mode for those. That completes the trifecta of "Why would you buy this?" reasoning. 1.) Jello 2.) frame rate 3.) no manual shutter speed and ISO control. The list doesn't stop there, but I won't badger the issue.
If they had manual control of exposure critical functions, i would buy. (I am planning on going Canon for this reason.) That doesn't mean I'd be satisfied, but I would be a consumer anyway.
Have you ever offered a dog some old food just to have him look at you like "I'm not going to eat that!" I feel that way about the video function on some of these cameras for now.
If they had manual control of exposure critical functions, i would buy. (I am planning on going Canon for this reason.) That doesn't mean I'd be satisfied, but I would be a consumer anyway.
Have you ever offered a dog some old food just to have him look at you like "I'm not going to eat that!" I feel that way about the video function on some of these cameras for now.
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G
Guest
Guest
"Dream cam", it has a nice ring to it. Good one, Barry.